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Healthcare Reform - Obama

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  1. Before I leave for the evening to head home to my family and participate in my fantasy baseball league's draft, I would like to reiterate something that I think is being lost in the mix:

    This is a bill regarding (for the most part) health insurance, not health care. This is, I don't know: a government mandate for people to buy health insurance with a combination of insurance laws/subsidies/tax breaks designed so that everyone can get access to a plan they can afford and to prevent malicious insurance company practices.

    Remember: this is not the government handing out free health care - this is health insurance and you have to buy it. Much like you have to buy Auto Insurance. The government is going to subsidize a lot of it, but let's keep in mind this is a benefit that the people who are getting it are paying for, not just a freebee the government is handing out.

    This is going to create more competition. What a smart insurance company would do is create a wide range of products such as a cheap, bare bones insurance plan for healthy/young people who don't feel they need the same level of coverage as say a guy like me who wants his whole family covered as much as possible. And no, insurance companies are not going to crash and burn - they just got 32 million new customers. Trust me, they're going to be fighting for every one.

    This bill was not controversial in the least. We had manufactured controversy. Most of it is predictable and natural evolutions of existing policy. Denial of sick people should have been gone decades ago. Expansion of Medicare happens every 5 years or so. Any controversy was by someone on the hill who mistook obstinance with principles or who was getting campaign advice from Sarah Palin.

    I think this picture kinda sums it all up:

    tennaj, KDMerrill, cbrace and 5 others like this.
  2. That's what gets me toasty. Despite all the concessions the Dems made, the Republicans still - unanimously - voted no. It points to them intending to vote no all along but trying to screw up the original plan as much as possible before they knew it would pass. Party of No, indeed!

    I think from this point out, the Dems should learn from this, ignore any attempts at bipartisanship, and just pass bill after bill after bill with the House majority.

    The only thing I want to know is when Rush is moving out of the country! :D
    tennaj, Guido and jr313 like this.
  3. TheBrit

    TheBrit Well-Known Member

  4. spiz

    spiz Well-Known Member

    No that doesn't sum anything up. The picture incorrectly associates Rebuplicans alone with unnecessary wars. You do realize that all of your fanboy Democrats voted for this never ending war right? And lets not forget that Obama has no intentions of bringing our troops home. He never has. He is running for 4 more years of Bush. Same shit, different day.

    It's mind baffling that people actually believe Obama has good intentions and is actually different than his predecessor. Republicrats are one in the same, and the only way for this country to succeed, is for this government to fail.

    Obama should be focused on fixing our economy, rather than coming up with a bill that is sure to bankrupt our country. And yes, this will bankrupt our country. You can't spend money you don't have. Simple economics.
    BirdieMN and MK_9 like this.
  5. Dark Jedi

    Dark Jedi Guest

    the government cant even run medicare and medicaid and now they want a new health care plan to screw up on. heck they couldn't even run a whorehouse and went bankrupt( anyone remember the mustang ranch?)

    what happened to freedom of choice? by forcing Americans to take this plan or face financial penalties treads peoples very freedom. why should I have to pay more for others health care? I pay into social security that I will never see as it will be bankrupt before i will see it and come on I have to be like 72 before I can file for full benefits. Wheres the option for me not to pay in and invest that money for my retirement.

    I am sorry you cant pick and choose bits and pieces of a socialist health care and say it will work. If obamacare is so great then why so much wheeling and dealing to get this pass the first hurdle? why rush something so quick that affects every American in the country. How are people out of work suppose to pay for even this?

    if this bill is so great. then why not get rid of medicaid and medicare? then you can take that money and put it towards obamacare and then there would be a true universal health care plan. this bill is just a repackaged medicare plan and in the end will bankrupt an already up to their eye teeth in debt country.

    funny how the demacraps say they are listening to the American people voice. well their hearing aid must be faulty as it looks like 80% of the people are saying no. one good thing is those demacraps just sealed their fate. they will be out of a job next election. sad to say it will be to late as the damage will already be done.

    if you think this is such a great plan good for you. this reminds me of Jim Jones and drink the cool-aid. well the democraps has handed out the cool-aid. so cheers and drink to the fall of the united states.
  6. momoceio

    momoceio Well-Known Member

    Since when hasn't our government spent money it doesn't have? Gov't spending is what pulls a country out of a recession most of the time anyway.
  7. Dark Jedi

    Dark Jedi Guest

    so if I am lets say $100,000 in debt.I should spend more money I dont have and it will get me out of the hole? talk about failed logic
  8. toasty

    toasty Well-Known Member

    Wow, dude, I don't even know where to begin with this. You're complaining about components that aren't even a part of this bill. Sweet fancy moses.
  9. momoceio

    momoceio Well-Known Member

    Just saying...show the last time our government has had a presidential term where spending didn't go up? If you're going to pull that argument out then you need to address every bill that has passed in the last 60 years.
  10. Dark Jedi

    Dark Jedi Guest

    what makes you think I havent? but the hear and now is obama and this congress thats the issue. cant change history but you can hope they can learn from it.
  11. jradicle11

    jradicle11 That Guy VIP Member

    Isn't the whole essence of debt spending money that you don't have?
  12. toasty

    toasty Well-Known Member

    It depends. If you are 100K in the hole and you keep spending, you're probably not going to get out of the hole, but then again you're probably not spending money on things that will help increase your income. If you incur debt to start a business, improve an existing business or get an education that will increase you're earning potential, who knows, maybe you will. When I was a college student, I was flat broke, and when I was a law student, I became buried in debt, but as a result of incurring that debt, my earning power was much higher and I'm in a much better financial position now.

    Government spending isn't really comparable to an individual's situation, though, because it's designed to have a much more macro effect. If, as a result of this spending, unemployed people have jobs and are paying taxes, that results in increased revenue. Similarly, if I'm making more money and spending that money, that puts more money in the pockets of local businesses, which in turn bumps up the tax base, etc., etc.

    When you're flat broke but you go have a nice dinner anyway, you're screwing yourself because there's not an expectation that this meal is going to come back to you in a meaningful way. Government spending, on the other hand, has the potential to stimulate the economy more generally, which can have a snowball effect if done properly.

    This should be obvious, however. Ultimately, the point of this post is that comparing your financial situation to that of an entire economy is just silly.
    pwabbit and cbrace like this.
  13. hexon

    hexon Well-Known Member

    Odd, if I have a strange mole or want to go in for acne problems I call and make an appointment with my dermatologist office and can get in the next week, if not sooner. When I thought I broke my wrist on a weekend snowboarding trip, I decided to forgo the long wait at the hospital ER and I made an appointment with my orthopedic doctor, who is an ortho surgeon, that monday (that's 2 days since they weren't open on the weekend). When I get sick I normally just go to after-hour clinics. When I have problems that can wait a day or so I normally call up my family doctor and get seen within 3 days depending on how flexible my schedule is for that week.
    pwabbit likes this.
  14. spiz

    spiz Well-Known Member

    I suggest you do some research... particularly the time frame of the Great Depression. It wasn't government spending that pulled us out, it was allowing the tax payers to have more money to spend. To answer your question, we have always incurred debt as a country, but thanks to Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr., GW Bush, and now Obama, the spending has gone out of control. The difference is the leader that takes strides to follow the constitution at all costs. The last president to do this was Kennedy. He was ironically assassinated shortly after telling the country that lobbyists and banks would no longer run our country. Unfortunately, this is exactly who our country is run by.

    Don't confuse government spending with the rest of us spending money. The more bloated a government, the less money it's citizens have, thus a bankrupt and failing country. It's very simple. There are people who want this to happen, and then there are people who believe the lies they spread. We're like a bunch of re-tarded sheep.

    Learning and understanding Austrian economics can go a long ways. Unfortunately, our society tends to think they're right about everything, based on what talking heads feed them. That goes for both ends of the political spectrum.

    On a side note, do people really think Obama gives a rat's ass about our well-being? No. Everything he has laid out on the table in regards to his agenda points towards control. More and more control. This is hardly about providing health care for those without it.

    Wake up America.
  15. Covert_Death

    Covert_Death Well-Known Member

    you people scare me, im okay if you are for reform... IM for reform, healthcare is a mess and because i've just had cancer i have a "pre-existing condition" and that needs to be fixed, but the government deciding to giver EVERYONE health coverage is a mistake. they should have taken steps, made it easier for people to initially get covered. but NOW, if my cancer returns which it is more likely too then me getting it in the first place.... then i have to wait to get cured... do you know how fast testicular cancer spreads? i had it two weeks and was already sick, it kills fast, i don't have time to wait for some government employee who doesn't know shit about cancer to aprove my chemotherapy that WILL SAVE MY LIFE.

    health care needs to be fixed, yes, but making a mess that can never be corrected because an IGNORANT president decides to bend rules here and there and shove it through AGAINST the MAJORITY of AMERiCAN people wishes is just damn disrespectful. my government clearly doesn't give a hoot about me anymore.

    when i finish reading the 3,000~ page bill that was released friday, i'll let you know how i think they should vote... oh wait they already managed to read the whole thing and vote in 2 days.......

    BIG HUGE RED FREAKIN FLAGS should go up when a bill is 3000 pages and being voted on 2 days later... WTF PEOPLE< WAKE UP!!!!!!!
  16. CampD

    CampD Well-Known Member

  17. IOWA

    IOWA Mr. Logic Pants Moderator

    basically what this bill says, if your middle class, your screwed.
  18. Guido

    Guido Member

    I work at a major university hospital, and we provide millions of dollars of indigent care to people from throughout the state. We are required to care for the state citizens because we are a state supported university, however we are reimbursed <10% of what it costs to care for these citizens. I absolutely support additonal taxes on the wealthy to increase the reimbursement that we get for indigent care. Face it, people who don't have insurance ultimately cost more to care for, they use the emergency department as their doctor office. Doctor offices WON'T see you if you don't have insurance, or don't have cash in advance. Make it so that people are on some kind of insurance so that they aren't afraid to go to the doctor's office because of the cost, and quit clogging up the emergency department with.... sore throats, ingrown toenails, tooth abcess, fevers, colds etc.
  19. Outatime

    Outatime Well-Known Member Contributor

    Edited for sanity.

    This is a beautiful post. How many failed government programs can YOU count in this post? I lost count and grew bored.
  20. Outatime

    Outatime Well-Known Member Contributor

    True that. And I'd actually be willing to venture a bit further out into kookie conspiracy theory. The big O is obviously a Bill Ayers socialist. You nut job Tories that deny it need to place one foot back in reality and study a bit of history. Ayers and the Weatherman Underground had the idea of overloading capitalism until it failed in order to bring about a communist revolution. I would be willing to say that this has nothing to do with "helping people" (whether they want it or not, I may add) but has everything to do with the fact that since O has been in office, everything he's done has been an attempt at breaking the back of our great republic.

    It's time to take it back.

    You unAmerican, yellow, leftist, Tory, tyranophiles need to move on. You're no longer welcome here.

    Edit: I might add that you just gave the Americans their rallying cry for 2012. Say goodbye to the one term savior.
    MK_9 likes this.
  21. Guido

    Guido Member

    Virginia's Attorney General is planning on filing a lawsuit because the federal government cannot force its citizens to buy something..... Hmm, I am REQUIRED to buy auto insurance or pay a $500 penalty to the state to help offset the damage that other uninsured motorists cause, but not to benefit me.
  22. bbrosen

    bbrosen Well-Known Member

    Only required if you drive

    should we require everyone to get auto insurance regardless just to lower the cost a little? does not make sense, and while we are on this subject, why not earthquake insurance? if everyone got it, it would also lower costs, a little bit, if everyone participated.

    health insurance is an agreement between you and the insurance company to pay for certain procedures, meds and services as per the policy. It is a good like anything else. Insurance companies do not provide health care, Doctors do. just because one has insurance does not mean one will get care. period. By the same token just because one does not have health insurance does not mean they will not get care. who is our government to say who should buy what and at what cost and coverage?

    if you are so hot to help others, why are you not going to someone on your street or in your neighborhood, find someone who cannot afford that heart transplant, and pay for it out of your pocket? also include their follow up care and meds/ Why arn't any of theses liberals doing this?

    I have not found one yet that has or is doing this. See, when it comes directly out of your pocket, you libs do not step up to the plate, so here is your shining moment, well, lets see it , c'mon, open up yer wallet, pay for that $300,000 operation. Well??????? I thought so. Put up or shut up.
  23. Crude

    Crude Well-Known Member

    Actually I had to work. I still do 40 hours a week at one job and side jobs when I can get my hands on a deal. A stickler for details my butt. 1 trillion? try 2 in the first 10 years. You'll have to pay doctors! the first trillion is ONLY health insurance. Doctors are starting to refuse medicaid patients on the grounds that the doctors can't survive. Also lets not forget that the war ( while IMO unconstitutional ) was voted on by both parties. Republicans ( not my favorite party, but the lesser of the two evils ) had no hand in this current undermining of liberties. It will be contested by various STATE superme justices based on the fact that it is unconstitutional to force citizens to buy anything. Most of what the media is currently spewing is half truth or all lies. Currently it is ILLEGAL to refuse medical treatment to anyone. This means that even if you do not have insurance you are still going to be treated. So what is this trillion dollars going to change other then what I take home.

    I lived overseas for 14 year. My neighbor bled to death in the hall way of a hospital while waiting for a physician to get to the hospital. And while this does not yet include dental I myself had a filling done when I was 14 while over seas. They didn't want to pay for Novocain. Can you imagine taking your kid to get a filling without any local anesthesia? For the record I am 31 now and i remember that like it was yesterday. You've gotta be NUTZ to want that.

    It's interesting that the taxes kick in next year but we won't see a benefit from this until 2014. You do know that the government owes the social security fund some number just short of a trillion dollar right? ( 800 billion maybe?) Where are the taxes for the next 3 years going to go? Vaporize? Pay for the cash for clunkers? WTF? Does no one read between the lines? Does no one see the bigger picture?

    It's odd that 2014 would be half way through obamas second term IF he gets reelected (lets try and not let that happen) So if his plan goes bust and they figure out it doesn't work and Americans decide it wasn't what they wanted afterall they can pass the buck to the next guy.

    Lastly, even though I touched on this earlier, when was the last time something like this came up and got NO votes from the other party? I though Obama was all bi-partisan and stuff? If nothing else this proves that Americans are bitterly divided. This whole health care thing has awakened a sleeping giant in the US. Look at the Tea party movement. Look at the 9-12ers. Look at the laws that conservative states are passing and read how defiant they are towards the federal government. Look at the groups that are advocating that their state secede from the US....

    I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson

    Anti grade school comment disclosure: No I'm not going to proof read it I took the time to write it. That should be good enough.
  24. Teh_Higgins

    Teh_Higgins Member

    No matter what figures you throw out there or what sob story you share, the simple fact remains: we cannot afford this.

    I did a huge project for school (a graduation requirement at my school) on the various healthcare reform bills. I went through the numbers, arguments from BOTH sides, statistics, and interviewed many people (including small business owners, recipients of govt. insurance, and British citizens).

    The talking points may sound like a dream come true for some people, and healthcare reform is desperately needed in America, but what congress has proposed (and passed) WILL NOT address and fix the crucial problems at their root. Medicare needs reform, not budget cuts; pre-existing condition discrimination needs addressing, not mandatory insurance purchase; and pricing needs to be brought under control, but not through draconian and socialistic methods. We need true reform, not a $2.5 trillion healthcare "reform" executive order.

    America has $14 trillion in national debt and a $1.4 trillion budget deficit. How in the hell are we going to pay for this? Oh wait, NO ONE KNOWS.
  25. momoceio

    momoceio Well-Known Member

    I did my research, maybe you need to re-check your sources? WWII, government spending and government programs are what pulled our country out of the depression.

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