What the heck is the deal with iphone users Vs Android users

[mrspeedmaster]

Wow rickyaustin, you sure subscribe to the fanboy attitude that so many of us "less intelligent" people you look down your nose at rail against. It's even filled with blatant half truths. Sorry, i dont find square icons you cant change on a black background "beautiful."

I don't think he is talking about the look of the GUI. The iPhone's strength's is the over-all consistency of the user interface. Apple sweats the little details that makes a big difference. The beauty of the iPhone is not the black background/rows of the application apps. The beauty is in the over-all user experience. The experience and expectations as you click on actions and the 'softwares' response to it. These user-experience scenarios have been copied and copied blatantly. You may not notice it but many do. For example, hold-press was never done until 2007. You simply can't do hold touch until capacitive multi-touch made a precedent. Pinch-n-zoom web browsing didn't happen till early this year. Even small stuff are blatantly copied like the scroll-wheel in dates/numbers. Have you see the alarm clock in the HTC incredible and evo? Blatant, 100% copies.

Android as a platform needs to step-up in terms of user-experience. Having a fast phone can only do so much. The 3GS (despite it's slower, slower) cpu can still auto-orient faster than all 3 1ghz snap-dragon phones (Nexus/Incredible/Evo).

I can also be very specific when I make these claims that Android is not on the same level in terms of polish in the user-interface level. For example, my HTC Incredible uses SENSE UI. My Motorola uses Motoblur. Sense UI is horrible UI. It looks pretty; using a nice thin sans font, black liquid design elements but overall, it looks like it was designed by an amateur. Many people are impressed by the "gloss" but to someone who knows design, it looks half-ass. I notice the design faults easily and I can easily defend this position. Here are some examples of how horrible the designs are.
You can disagree with me all you want but I'll be specific:

1) Inconsistent font sizes in menus.
E.G. Compare the font size in the HTC Music Player listing for songs/genres. Then look at the font size in just the HTC Mail.
2) Inconsistent UI menus. OK, each menu is specific for each app. But why do some menus have as 3-d border on top and some don't (e.G. Mail/Photo has the 3/d border and HTC car panel/HTC SMS Message/ etc don't have them).
3) Over-all inconsistent user inputs. This is my biggest issue. For example, if you go to the Google Marketplace, type in anything in the search field, hit the search button on the bottom, it goes out and searches the Internet and NOT within the marketplace. Now, if you go to the mail app and do the same thing, the button DOES search within the mail app.

I'll give you another glaringly bad example. In the default Sense layout. Go to the favorite tab (swipe right home). See the "+" Add contacts. It is in 2 different places (again; showing the immaturity of the designer). Click on either one. Normal action dictates that if you hit a "plus, or add" the next action is to add the user to your favorites? Correct? No, you can't even add the phone book user to your favorites. You have to dig down to the menu item and add it after the 1st click.

4) Inconsistency across apps. In addition the fact some apps ignore the search button and some use it, we inconsistent request element. The deletion of mail is on the left of the subject in GMAIL and the deletion request input is to the right on the normal mail client. So google uses a different approach to HTC's approach yet both are shipped as default for the phone. As an Incredible user, I use what is given to me. One uses a check metaphor with a sliding modal and another uses a "x" metaphor but you need 3 clicks on the HTC to get the same action as the double click on the GMAIL app.

These are mostly Sense UI (HTC problems). I can go into Moto-blur and stock Android UI problems. The problem is that there are no over-all UI consistency guidelines. When I started learning to program with the Android SDK, Google set forth some bare-bone framework but NO one really follows it; including Google. E.G. the app icon, the use of menus, g-sensor orientation,etc. Take a look at the bazillion file browsers out there - Astro, Aexplorer. Sure you get choice, but they all go in their own direction (different icons/different menus) and it destroys the overall OS experience.
Then you have apps like handcent sms, doubletwist that tries so hard to emulate the iPhone. And those two apps happen to be very popular.

Overall, it is a total free-for-all. Even though the iPhone's UI doesn't glossy, it works. I'm the guy who prefers functionality over gloss. E.G. I don't use wall-papers on my computers because my eyes get distracted. HTC's use of Photoshop lens-flares in their icons may look cool to the un-informed, but it is a sign of a designer who can't formulate a coherent UI.

The Liquid gloss meme on the HTC phones may look pretty. I even think it is cute but it doesn't hide the glaring UI problems I just raised. It is like buying a luxury car that uses fake veneer wood and pleather if you want to use a car analogy.

 

[toasty]

WOW! bought a car charger a few months ago the charger stop working after a week, took it back to sprint told them my problem she got a new one right out the box and said her you go,no question was ask no fuss just said thanks and head back out. wasn't apple that don't like their customers to pay cash or you can't buy more than two of their iphone or ipad.?

I think you're missing the point. It didn't happen after a week, it happened after a couple of years, after the warranty had run, and notwithstanding that the unit was actually working just fine by the time he was done with it.

 

[Snow_Fox]

@mrspeedmaster

I feel like those are some pretty bold assumptions..

First..

It doesn't matter what it looks like to a professional.

It matters what it looks like to your average consumer which as much as I hate to say this, your average corperation has begun to assume is totally mentally handycapped.

Next as far as consistency goes, My girlfriend has yet to download an app to her phone and gone "WTF I DON'T KNOW HOW TO MANAGE THIS!?!" and she is not an android fangirl.. for that matter before she needed a phone when her last went out.. she didn't know what android was.

And I have yet to see anything spectacular about the iphone os to be quite honest. Sure it is "consistent" and consistency can be good.. but, consistency can also be boring..

I saw mention of how "the rows of icons and black background does not make the iphone experience"

However, it realistically does...i don't think I have to make much of an analogy here.. The screen is black and all of the icons are neatly lined up in rows and collums.. and while they may all have a different icon.. it is very representative of the phone itself.. everything is in a given order, all the same little icons rows and collums all lined up according to how someone else wants them to be, not how you want it to be though. I'm not going to argue specifics here because it won't do any good, you either love iphone or you don't. Sure by contrast android is more "chaotic" however, realistically it doesn't take long to adjust to any app on android and I have had no problems picking up my girlfriends phone and running..

If you want a product which is uniform that is great, however I don't want to be locked into any given organizational style.. reflective of apps that are regulated by someone else, and all made to be the same based on someone elses standards..

Thats the problem with iphone.. its all about "standards". Sure Standards are a good thing.. but, they should be YOUR standards not someone elses!

You don't date women based on what your mom says a woman should be or your dad says a woman should be. You don't want your parents picking your possible wives for you. Why would you want apple picking your possible apps?

Sure you can argue that "apple will have better apps!" and your absolutely right.. Apple will have more consistant and "better polished" applications all day long.. The problem with that? what difference does the "consistency" make if another app works just fine?

Even if a program has quirky controls, doesn't look or "feel" amazing in an apple sense... If it gets the job done better than programs with all the "polish" in the world.. that means it is still a more functional program.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

@mrspeedmaster
I feel like those are some pretty bold assumptions..

It matters what it looks like to your average consumer which as much as I hate to say this, your average corperation has begun to assume is totally mentally handycapped.

Consistency is a big deal for the average and even power user.

Come one, a search button should do one thing across the apps. Search within the app.
A plus button used in one app means, immediate adding of an element to a tree. When you add something, you shouldn't have to go to a modal menu.
That is just programming User Interface 101. They teach that 2nd semester of any UI curriculum.
When you go to a website and hit a "login" button after filling out your username/password, the next action is to "login" and not go to a page to give you choices and you have to hunt a hidden menu to finally login. When I click on a button that says "add contacts to favorite" it should do the same thing. Add it from a list.


I can deal with the inconsistencies among different developers but with the same organization (HTC/Google), they should follow their own UI guidelines.
Since they(HTC) don't, this means their software development team are run by amateurs who rather prettified icons with lens blur in Photoshop instead of making their own apps confirm to each other.

Even if a program has quirky controls, doesn't look or "feel" amazing in an apple sense... If it gets the job done better than programs with all the "polish" in the world.. that means it is still a more functional program.

The whole issue of consistency and polish is what seperates Apple's lead. Look at just PMP media playback. Nothing, really nothing compares to the iPod player in iPhone and Ipad.

On my HTC I have the following music apps: DoubleTwist,MixZing,Zimly,Meridian,MusicBlaster, and the built in HTC Music Sense Player. All of them are crap. Some can see the files in the internal storage, some can't. Some can specify playback of either/or. Most only read from the SD card.
Some have Album art for certain songs, and some don't. I buy all my Music from amazon mp3 store. My Johnny Cash has album art on DoubleTwist, no album art w/ Faithless Album. On a different player, it is reversed - Album art on Johnny Cash but no album art on the other album.

What gives? Why can't 6 different developers make a music player that doesn't suck.

Another example:
Why do EVERY photo album app I use pick up and show each and every jpeg from my SD? Seriously, I have a bunch of app data on my SD card and every photo album picks them up. The little icons for Co-Pilot are stored on the SD, HTC makes 3 different jpegs for Album art.

Since HTC's music app makes those cached 4 different sizes of jpegs, you would figure that their OWN development team has Q/A their own HTC Photo Album app to ignore their own Music app cache files. Their own Photo Album art should hide those cached files. period. It is just sloppy. This is why I rile on them for making lens flare clip art icons instead of focusing on app development for their own product.

I have files that are sensitive from drop box which are stored in my dropbox folder in my SD and my Photo Album picks them up. Or when I surf porn using a 3rd party browser, it stores the cache in a folder that the HTC Photo view picks up. Can you imagine the look on my wife's face when she wants to browse family photo on my phone; she gets a gazillion cache directories.
Why do I need to go into Astro file manager or command line to rename folders .hideme so they don't show up? Do you think the average user knows how to go into the shell and rename a file "cache" to ".cache?" Sometimes, I rather have Apple's locked-up model of the file system for these reasons alone.

And I have yet to see anything spectacular about the iphone os to be quite honest. Sure it is "consistent" and consistency can be good.. but, consistency can also be boring..

You clearly don't see how things on iPhone just works. Because it works, you can't rave about it unless you have something to compare it to; mainly Android.

Just some issues that iPhone can handle but Android can't
Issue #3902 - Pure IPSEC VPN (Issue 3902 - android - Feature Request: "pure" ipsec vpn client (cisco-compatible) - Project Hosting on Google Code)
Issue 1386 WPA2- Enterprise with EAP (Issue 1386 - android - Feature req: support WPA2-Enterprise with EAP extensions - Project Hosting on Google Code)
Issue 1273 IP Proxy for Wifi (Issue 1273 - android - IP Proxy Settings for Wifi Network - Project Hosting on Google Code)
Issue 2361 Lack of CalDav (Issue 2361 - android - Add support for external calendars via iCal / CalDav - Project Hosting on Google Code)
Defect 1109 Alarm clock failure (Issue 1109 - android - No sound or vibrate by alarm clock when set to be on. - Project Hosting on Google Code) I have a beef with this one..

Some of these features are why Blackberry and to some extent, iPhone has nothing to worry about in the Enterprise market.


Well if it isn't so great why do all the super-phones; infringing and stealing the great ideas from iPhone.
My 2.1 Android handset is 10000x better than my Android 1.6 phone because IT DOES steal those ideas from Apple.
Multi-touch; pinching and zoom is a big deal on Android phones that have it and those that don't.

If Apple does win a patent ruling that prohibits swipe gestures, pinch-zoom, I'm pretty sure you'll see why those OS features are compelling. HTC would have to do a OTA software update to "remove" those non-compelling Apple features. A lot of people would either NOT upgrade or bitch/moan. Just like the rolling update of Dolphin/Skyfire which removed the youtube download due to legal issues. I'm sure not going to update those apps because I like that feature.

Froyo Android 2.2 is going to address the orientation from portrait to right as well as potrait to left landscape.

Again, features on iPhone that are compelling enough to steal because they make a great user-experience.

It would really suck if HTC,Motorola, Samsung were prohibit from pressure-timed presses in their phones because Apple does have patents for them. It would really suck in a user-experience level to have to click 3-4 times because of patent enforcement.

 

[Snow_Fox]

I can't really retaliate on that the comment about the menu's I have NEVER had any problems that took more than a few seconds to work out or get use to.

The whole issue of consistency and polish is what seperates Apple's lead. Look at just PMP media playback. Nothing, really nothing compares to the iPod player in iPhone and Ipad.

I won't deny apple has the lead but, don't ever think that apple is the highest quality media playback by a long shot. As long as we can agree on this I am fine. However, for what it is worth.. go to any serious audiophile website and mention ipod touch being of the same quality as the sony walkman x or cowon s9.. You will be flamed off the website. Both of those mp3 players have better quality media playback especially in terms of audio than the ipod touch iphone or probably ipad. The problem is anytime I argue the higher quality audio of those media players.. people either ignore me or go off on a tanget about how "well the ipod touch has more apps!".. Which is really against the original point.. Sure the ipod touch has more apps.. but, we are not discussing the ipod touch as a portable computing device.. we are discussing it as a media player.. and it falls short for most people who are really serious about high quality audio playback.

Why do EVERY photo album app I use pick up and show each and every jpeg from my SD? Seriously, I have a bunch of app data on my SD card and every photo album picks them up. The little icons for Co-Pilot are stored on the SD, HTC makes 3 different jpegs for Album art. I have files that are sensitive from drop box which are stored in my dropbox folder in my SD and my Photo Album picks them up. Or when I surf porn using a 3rd party browser, it stores the cache in a folder that the HTC Photo view pickers up. Can you imagine the look on my wife's face when she wants to browse family photo on my phone; she gets a gazillion cache directories.

Probably the same reason itunes picks up EVERY SINGLE ****** ****** ****** ***** ***** ****** sound file saved on my computer. I'm sure you can understand my aggrevation when listening to Disturbed.. and suddenly I hear clinking gates from oblivion, unit movement from old rts games and a million other random things I should have deleted when paying attention to what I was syncing.

Again, features on iPhone that are compelling enough to steal because they make a great user-experience.

It would really suck if HTC,Motorola, Samsung were prohibit from pressure-timed presses in their phones because Apple does have patents for them. It would really suck in a user-experience level to have to click 3-4 times because of patent enforcement.

When you have "whats cool" everyone wants it. If they lose it.. I personally don't care.. However, with that said I don't represent the entire market.. I personally don't believe its even about the ui.. I believe its just as you said.. "those that have it vs those who don't".

Let me just take a moment to state I have never owned an apple product that "just works" and after all of these pages of arguing and disagreeing.. I feel like I'm going to give this one last try.

Here is why I don't like apple.

First.. their products don't "just work".. I have had the same experiences many of you apple fans hate about android with my apple products.

When I got itunes.. it added every sound on my computer in every format to my ipod.. Very annoying to say the least.. it didn't "just work".

Now for your average user that probably isn't an issue... they don't have 20 games or more saved to their computer.

I hate that we have gotten to a point in time where people can be justified for being lazy! Sure an 80 year old man who has never used a computer.. if he just wants to see pics of his grand kids then what ever works is fine with me!

However, I really don't believe apple is what apple says it is.. And I really believe for some reason I can't explain.. People are willing to put up with more from apple.. Maybe for some people they will do anything to be "cool" and other just want something they don't have to worry about.. However, apple does not "just work" not by a long shot. NOT ONLY does it not work.. they put effort into ensuring I can't use a method which DOES just work.. and talk about album art all you want.. If i bought an album from itunes I never had too many problems.. but, if I added my own.. well.. I was sol.

Next, I hate, hate, hate, the superiority complex apple WANTS its users to have. You can deny it all you want but, apple showed GHANDI, GHANDI in a think different ad trying to imply "apple is what great people like ghandi would have had, you should get one too!" It showed people dancing with ipods saying 'hey get this, you can be cool too!" Sure all companies want to stroke your ego.. but, the ipad commerical is the first one I think I've seen that was not directly and intentionally stroking the watchers ego saying 'get this be cool!' Even the stupid "I'm a mac" ads where they pretty much said "don't be this loser, get a mac!" *all* did the exact same thing, make people want an apple product and make them think that they would be cooler for being part of the mac crowd. You can not tell me these sort of adds don't encourage a superiority complex on behalf of apple products! Sure not ALL users have it but, come on! If I am wrong feel free to tell me.

Sure android is guilty of some "lowballing" apple with the "idon't" commericals..

but, they at least mix in a healthy amount of what the product can do, and it does personify apple as a person and make fun of it from there.. and at least MOST of the ads focus on what you CAN do. The ipad commericals are the only ones that don't stroke the watchers ego and ironically they say in the ad "you already know how to use it!" as much as I hate the commerical itself AT LEAST it isn't attacking someone else or inflating the users ego.

Does apple "just work" ? maybe for users like some of my co workers who only use computers for porn and school.. But, add one game file to your computer (something that is probably less common on mac which is why you don't have the same problems with itunes I do) sure.. why not..

But, as soon as I expect more out of my pc... my apple product lets me down.

Is ipod touch a great jack of all trades? yes but, it is a master of none, if your a gamer your going to want a psp instead, if you like music, your going to want a more serious media player, and if you want net access your probably going to want a bigger tablet.

It is a great jack of all trades unsurpassed in many ways.. And sure an individual gaming device, music device are more trouble to carry around but, that is the point.. It is worth the trouble if your really into gaming or music.

If your not thats fine just don't tell me it has better audio quality when your dead wrong. Don't tell me it is superior to a media player because, it plays video games..

My problem then moves into the fact that people will try to JUSTIFY owning one.. Please, if you want an apple product don't try to justify it.. just admit it has inferior gaming and audio capabilites to stand alone devices (that is not a mark of shame on ANY level) and say you wanted something all in one and to not spend 400$ when you only needed to spend 200$ Just admit well it has inferior audio play back, gaming capability but, it was cheaper and I'm not lugging crap around everywhere I go. However, for whatever reason people seem to feel the need to say it IS better than the individual devices at doing what the individual devices were designed to do!

And FWIW I love the walkman x and s9 user interfaces.. the x I've had more play time with and it is amazing..

With all that said.. I feel pretty justified in not likeing apple.. I would go so far as to say be pretty justified in hating them because, they do advertise their products as being masters of all trades and people buy it more so than with any other company.

If I had ht
Again, features on iPhone that are compelling enough to steal because they make a great user-experience.

It would really suck if HTC,Motorola, Samsung were prohibit from pressure-timed presses in their phones because Apple does have patents for them. It would really suck in a user-experience level to have to click 3-4 times because of patent enforcement.

If I EVER run for president.. I will sure as hell be paying the apple marketing department top dollar to advertise an iPresident.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

I won't deny apple has the lead but, don't ever think that apple is the highest quality media playback by a long shot. As long as we can agree on this I am fine.

I'm not going to disagree with you there. In terms of technical playback on an audiophile level type accuracy, I am certain other devices like the cowan are better. I don't think people are that stupid when you compare a general purpose device to a bespoke device. Same thing with Bose speakers vs... say a Watts Wilkons/B & O, Lindd,etc.. There will be specialty bespoke manufactures and brand. Apple doesn't claim to be the best; most accurate "sounding" audiophile player. Apple consumers who spend money on apple products are the kind that spend money on other high-end gear. Every mac user I know owns a B/O, uses high end cameras like Leica/ full frame DSLR Nikons/Cameras,etc.... They will also agree with you.

We are talking general purpose phone/pdas. My example has to do with user-experience and overall functionality vis-a-vis its leading phone competitor-Android.

Probably the same reason itunes picks up EVERY SINGLE ****** ****** ****** ***** ***** ****** sound file saved on my computer. I'm sure you can understand my aggrevation when listening to Disturbed..

I can see this as frustrating but.... Apple does let you specify what you add/sync to your library. If you are dragging a whole hard-disk into your library, it is your fault (user). Any Windows type media manager will do this. This is not unique to iTunes....

In my example, I can't exclude which folders I don't want to be added. The Android system just added it for me.
So your example is not comparable to mine. In your case, you do have a choice to sync or what not to sync. As far as album art, itunes will take any mp3 files with embedded art like the ones you buy from Amazon. Same thing with their book readers, it will take any book that is open format. So you are misleading if you say album art only works in files bought off itunes. My example was specific. I bought music from Amazon. These files are NOT proprietary. They work fine in Itunes. They work fine in Windows Media Player, they work fine in Ubuntu rhythmbox. They don't work fine in the current state of Android media players with a list that I was specific with.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

Snow Fox,
I just want to also add if we are going to make this a lively discussion, we shouldn't make the rebuttals moving targets. You said you didn't think iPhone OS was all of that. I rebutted giving you specific "smartphone" examples compared to its main competitor - Android. My premise still stands un-refuted. Apples apps are consistent and polished and this is why they are in the lead. This is the reason why people still buy their products.

Whether you agree or disagree, fine. But you move the target to audio playback quality against bespoke dedicated devices like the walkman/cowan. I never said they make the best player in the framework you suggest (audiophile sound quality). I was consistent in the meme of consistency and focuses on the aspect in a software level - consistency, attention to detail,etc..., Which, still hasn't been refuted.

Instead directly acknowledging whether or not I was right about consistency, you turn the argument to "well, I have the same problem synching music on my pc"

So you can't seem to exactly refute my points by-by-point and them move into Apple's advertising practices.

I like to keep the discussion a bit germane. If you can't refute my point or agree with it, fine. Just don't introduce new points. OK, I get the point you don't like Apple. Fine. But when you make a statement that their OS isn't all that. I refute it, you should either counter-refute my points or agree. Don't introduce non-germane points like advertising.

What does hating advertising have to do with the merit of the quality of the Phone OS?

 

[jradicle11]

From what I've experience in my very short lifetime is that many people only buy apple products because of the brand name and logo. Granted, I am only in high school which is full of the trivial presentation of various brand names and logos. Most of these people seem to be lacking in knowledge of technology. I'd also like to point out that I attend a very wealthy high school with a high standard of living. If this wasn't the case, I'm sure I would see less people buying the newest apple product and more purchases more budget friendly technology.

As for me, I love being able to piece things together for reasonable prices. I will do mostly anything to avoid spending a lot of money. I build my own computer because it was cheaper for me to do so, and I also loved the challenge (ended up not being so challenging).

What I love about android is also the reason why I built my own computer. I want the customization that apple doesn't offer. There are so many things I can do on my android device that aren't accessible to the iphone. I mean, the look on people's faces when I go from using my on-screen keyboard to playing Mario Tennis with my physical keyboard is priceless.

It really grinds my gears when apple fan's get the newest version of every single apple device.

It seems that I have to leave for the moment. I will continue this a little later.

 

[Snow_Fox]

Snow Fox,
I just want to also add if we are going to make this a lively discussion, we shouldn't make the rebuttals moving targets. You said you didn't think iPhone OS was all of that. I rebutted giving you specific "smartphone" examples compared to its main competitor - Android. My premise still stands un-refuted. Apples apps are consistent and polished and this is why they are in the lead. This is the reason why people still buy their products.

You are right and I am not disagreeing that apple does have a very noted presence in the smart phone world and should be applauded for some of the things they do. I apologize for not refuting.

In terms of polish and consistency, I won't deny that all apple applications I have seen used do reflect a certain quality.. You would think at least from a 3rd party untrained perspective the same developer developed all the different programs.

However, my best rebuttle is this, Apples standards are Apple's standards not the users. Different users have different needs and different desires from applications. I have never met a person in my life who shared the exact same standards as I do. So I highly doubt a company is going to share the same standards as me because they are a bunch of people. A con of apple's consistency and "polish" is that you do not have a choice of choosing a possibly less polished app that provides more functionality or apps which possibly suit the users needs more.

This doesn't matter for your average end user however, this is reason to dislike apple for many of us.

Whether you agree or disagree, fine. But you move the target to audio playback quality against bespoke dedicated devices like the walkman/cowan. I never said they make the best player in the framework you suggest (audiophile sound quality). I was consistent in the meme of consistency and focuses on the aspect in a software level - consistency, attention to detail,etc..., Which, still hasn't been refuted.

I am sorry, I am not trying to sit here and debate apple products on any particular level, I was mostly attempting to recenter the discussion on why I dislike apple.

Is apple consistant? yes is it something I personally care about? no. I hate feeling like everything is perfectly uniform.. you want things to match.. but, what makes 1000 count thread sheets great is sleeping on 200 count thread sheets, Part of my point is even apps which are inconsistent with the rest of the experience can be used. Perhaps its because I've been gaming since I was 3 but, I have little problem adapting to controls and the way things work. I've played on the original nes, wii, ps3, computer, gameboy, nintendo ds, ps1, gamecube, ps2 and more, Within each of those systems there is a million different games mapped a million different ways.. So this may be part of why I don't even view "consistency" as an issue the way you do.

Is consistency an issue on the android platform? its harder for me to say. In some ways i feel better off just ignoring it or changing subject because, if consitency is a major issue to other people, then I don't want to say they are stupid or unadaptable.. on the flipside I don't have any problem adapting to new ways fairly quickly.. What impressed me most about the evo wasn't the things which were ripped off from apple.. (pinch to zoom ect)... It was the speed at which web pages loaded, the ability to drag the top down to view new text ect. The fact that it responded for the first time I've ever used a phone in a way that completely felt like I was on my desktop.

One particular thought that comes to mind and I am asking your opinion stirctly on this not trying to voice my own opinion.. But, do you really think it is copying apple to use gesture's like a swipe to change pages on a device? the main reason why I ask is because that is a natural gesture, how you would change the page of a book almost.. and sure apple may have been the first to implement it.. but, I feel like similar things have been around forever.. so can you really patient a natural motion?

Instead directly acknowledging whether or not I was right about consistency, you turn the argument to "well, I have the same problem synching music on my pc"

As I have stated before.. I am trying to avoid the issue of consistency because, I do not have problems adapting and have never found consistency to be an issue with very many of the products I've used.. So do you really want me to say consistency as a whole is unimportant? that would be wrong to say.. but, on the flipside I can't agree with you because I don't have the problems. I will say your average customer probably value's consistency more than I do.. however, we would be beating the same dead horse as we were when we discussed whether or not its wrong to be lazy.

Yes but,
So you can't seem to exactly refute my points by-by-point and them move into Apple's advertising practices.

if you care to give this one more go feel free to bring up any points and I will go down the list.. My move to apple's advertising practices was again based on why I hate apple which is relevant to the original topic.

However, since this thread began we have ALL had a bad habit of talking about how "great" things are without putting them into any sort of context.

We can argue that apple products have the best "user experience" the problem is that is a matter of opinion..

I do admit apple really has pushed the industry in a few different ways.. Honestly before apple came along no one talked about smartphones much less super phones.

However, since this began the argument (My perception at least) has been that the people arguing for apple argue there is a market FOR apple products which I don't deny. Apple does a great job at creating its own market and forcing others to compete with its own market..

That doesn't mean that we don't have justified reasons to dislike apple for example iTunes and not having the option to drag and drop songs.. let me rephrase that not only not having the option being intentionally kept from it.

And while we may be the exception... The fact is apple comes along and changes a lot of the standards, and even takes away good things in some cases all because it wants to be in charge. So those of us who have loved tech for a while now only hope that other companies don't go the way of apple and drop support for drag and drop of songs.

If you were using mac before the huge ipod boom its probably not as big of a deal to you because, you have been on apple, you've made peace with how apple works..

However, the more popular apple gets.. the more people that don't like apple and don't want to be stuck doing things how apple wants to are going to come out of the wood works..

I like to keep the discussion a bit germane. If you can't refute my point or agree with it, fine. Just don't introduce new points. OK, I get the point you don't like Apple. Fine. But when you make a statement that their OS isn't all that. I refute it, you should either counter-refute my points or agree. Don't introduce non-germane points like advertising.

What does hating advertising have to do with the merit of the quality of the Phone OS?

in a weak attempt to relate the above topics.

Apple advertises "being different" or at least did and advertises superiority however, locks you into doing things their way.

I can't be the only person noting the irony of "think different" and then being forced into uniformity.

And while it may not be the most pertinent to the previous discussion.. the original point is why do people hate apple.

I think the real question is what does the merit of a phone os have to do with why people hate a company?

Sure the phone os works for those who like it and those who don't do not need to use it..

The real question is why in discussing why people don't like a company, do we have to go into details of what machines are capable of, user experience and every other detail of every product imagenable.

the simple fact is this. Apple is catching the attention of enough people that, they have become uncomfortably influential. Apple controls product it owns pretty strictly.... And for those of us out there who like having options.. apple eclipses so much of the market today that you can't go through a day without hearing about it.. ESPECIALLY if you work sales.. I wasn't fond of apple before I worked sales I had a mild indifference at best..

However, working with the public more than I sometimes like now.. I easily grow tired of people who have some pretty bad misconceptions about apple or see it as this wonderful beautiful thing...

THE CAKE IS A LIE!

 

[Budah]

For me it has less to do with the devices and more to do with
-Rabid, condescending Apple fans
-Arrogant attitude that seems to be a part of Apple's corporate culture. A couple
examples:
-Refusing to make a 2 button mouse because they know what is best
-iTunes DRM
-Closed, proprietary technology used to control what the user does

Perhaps it's idealism left ofter from the early days of PC computing, who knows.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

Apple advertises "being different" or at least did and advertises superiority however, locks you into doing things their way.

I can't be the only person noting the irony of "think different" and then being forced into uniformity.

And while it may not be the most pertinent to the previous discussion.. the original point is why do people hate apple.

I think the real question is what does the merit of a phone os have to do with why people hate a company?

I will address your marketing/advertising comments.
First and foremost, the "Think Different" campaign you keep of bring up ended in 2002. The campaign ran from 1997-2002.

In Historical context, everything Apple was doing at the time did truly represent something different.
They migrated from Classic OS 9 to a modern Unix based workstation for the masses. Sun Solaris, SGI, HP/Compaq UX could never had done this.
Nobody in the industry was able to deliver on a Unix based OS for the mass consumer. Fact. This is 100% fact.
It was also the time Apple embraced many open technologies that Microsoft was vehemently against. Apple was aligning itself with Netscape, Sun, and many of the other companies
that wanted to break out of MS's hegemony. So yes, the message was very appropriate - break out of the conformity.

It was also more of a tribute to the idea of visionary thinking. Something you have to give Steve Jobs credit for. He has more impact on Silicon Valley than many people.
Also at the time, it was an unusal circumstance that Jobs, who was kicked out of Apple 10 years earlier, comes back to save it from the brink. It was that whole "prodigal son" coming back metaphor. A CEO who takes $1.00 in yearly pay and drives his employees to pursue creative projects that resulted in many mega-successes (E.G. iPod). Instead of focusing on the brown-box Dell style of walmart pc manufacturing, Jobs had a different vision. If you remember at that time, Steve Jobs and Michael Dell were one-upping each other. Michael Dell, looking back in history, made some assine remarks.

Also, it was an ad campaigned NOT by Apple but by their agency, TBWA/Chiat.
TBWA wanted to deliver a message that was a play on IBM's Think Motto campaign. If you don't understand that, then this is way over your head. It resulted in a stroke brilliance lauded by the advertising world to this day.

I remember when the shares of AAPL was trading at $6 at that time. Look at it now. Again, that takes real brains and talent. It takes vision to launch a series of product that people have dismissed over, over,and over again.I still have the original Slashdot articles that dismissed the original Ipod (which cost as much as today's iPad). I also remember how the pundits dismissed the iPhone.
People say only apple fanboys buy their products. Well, from where I see, Apple only had 1-2 million fanboys and now it has grown exponentially.

If you are still offended by an ad campaign that ended almost 8 years ago, it represents that the impact of the message is compelling and strong.
You also mention the 1984 Orwell ad on occassion. I guess, judging by your age, you don't understand the historial context of these messages.

The message that many people interpreted was not the idea of being "better than anyone." If you believe this, you are just reading the iHater's bullet points.
The message was... It is okay to use a different type of operating system. It is ok to use a different type of computer. At the time,
believe it or NOT, it was OK to use USB. When the first iMac was introduced. It got rid of parallel and serial ports. It introduced the notion of built in ethernet and wi-fi.

That "Think Different" message was a leap of faith of saying, "we don't need legacy 9 pin serial ports. WIFI is OK"
Do you remember Michael Dell and Dvorak in the rags totally dimissing a computer with only USB ports as "a toy." Michael Dell has said some seriously stupid things that he now regrets.
YOu don't see him ragging on the iPad or Apple anymore.
I guess you arent old enough to remember those comments. I still vividly remember them.

And, look at where we are today -- computers all have ethernet built in. USB is standard. Wifi is not a luxury, it is a requirement on all laptops.
I am bring this up because I don't think you understand of the context because I see the same exact arguments for the iPad.

The exact same arguments have been re-hased over,over,over,over,over,over again. USB is being proprietary (even though Intel invented it, no main stream MFGR pushed it).
Consumer computers don't need ethernet ports. HP was saying this to defend their workstation business.


Here is the original quote from the campaign:

Here’s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They’re not fond of rules. And they have no respect for the status quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them. About the only thing you can’t do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do.

Fact. You can't deny that Apple is not a mainstream PC manufacturer like Dell, Compaq, Lenovo,HP.
They design the software as well as the hardware.


Each person inteprets the meaning and message differently. You are entitled to what you believe from those ads. I am just saying, look at it from the context I just layed out.
Look at the context of it in the history. If you are still miffed from a 8 year old campaign, I don't know what to say.
Each company have their own advertising it just seems to be the fact that Apple's ad are more memorable than MS.
Can you say you remember MS's ad in 1999? Can you remember any Dell's Ads from 1999?


As for Apple's DRM

You guys must be real naive to the idea of record companies. Microsoft and Napster's model failed. As much as I hate DRM, DRM is a necessity if you want record companies, tv stations, book publishers to allow you to sell their content.

Also, as of 2 years now, you CAN buy iTune music files without DRM. There is an extra charge.

I don't want to go into another round of history lessons but look of Real and Napster's history. Real Networks turned down the iPod by the original developers. Apple would not be where they are now if they didn't take that risk. Microsoft uses DRM in WMV and they too failed to secure record companies/tv companies into their platform when they launched Windows Media Center.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

One particular thought that comes to mind and I am asking your opinion stirctly on this not trying to voice my own opinion.. But, do you really think it is copying apple to use gesture's like a swipe to change pages on a device? the main reason why I ask is because that is a natural gesture, how you would change the page of a book almost.. and sure apple may have been the first to implement it.. but, I feel like similar things have been around forever.. so can you really patient a natural motion?

This is a VERY good question.It is natural to swipe a real book but no one has ever taken the risk to try it on a multi-touch capacitive, pressure sensitive computer device.

And this here lies the conundrum.

Apple spent 3 years to do multi-touch from the ground-up in total secrecy among themselves. Hardware team didn't know what software team was doing. At that time, everyone, I mean everyone including HTC, Dell,HP was doing stylus computing.That was the status quo.
To this very day, Bill Gates in a recent interview (as of last week) says he strongly believes in pen computing over finger multi-touch. I totally understand where Bill Gates is coming from and totally became accustomed to the stylus.

Patents are designed to reward those who took those risks. There is no prior-art argument because it hasn't been done in the context patented -- Multi-touch capacitive, small pda/phone device. There are variations and some may argue a 7 year Windows Mobile had certain elements of it. But it won't stand in a patent dispute because of the way the patent was granted.

Prior to the iPhone, you answered the phone by clicking on a button.I did this on all my windows phone. None of them thought of swipes because NONE of them had capacitive multi-touch screens. Prior to the iPhone, you turn the page by hitting a "next" or "arrow" button. Again, that was the status quo.

It may sound so easy and natural, yet, no one took the risk to bring it to market.Apple may not have invented some of those innovations but they sure did buy out those developers that did. E.G. cover-flow.

 

[jradicle11]

Soon they'll be patenting phone colors...

 

[IOWA]

This is a VERY good question.It is natural to swipe a real book but no one has ever taken the risk to try it on a multi-touch capacitive, pressure sensitive computer device.

And this here lies the conundrum.

Apple spent 3 years to do multi-touch from the ground-up in total secrecy among themselves. Hardware team didn't know what software team was doing. At that time, everyone, I mean everyone including HTC, Dell,HP was doing stylus computing.That was the status quo.
To this very day, Bill Gates in a recent interview (as of last week) says he strongly believes in pen computing over finger multi-touch. I totally understand where Bill Gates is coming from and totally became accustomed to the stylus.

Patents are designed to reward those who took those risks. There is no prior-art argument because it hasn't been done in the context patented -- Multi-touch capacitive, small pda/phone device. There are variations and some may argue a 7 year Windows Mobile had certain elements of it. But it won't stand in a patent dispute because of the way the patent was granted.

Prior to the iPhone, you answered the phone by clicking on a button.I did this on all my windows phone. None of them thought of swipes because NONE of them had capacitive multi-touch screens. Prior to the iPhone, you turn the page by hitting a "next" or "arrow" button. Again, that was the status quo.

It may sound so easy and natural, yet, no one took the risk to bring it to market.Apple may not have invented some of those innovations but they sure did buy out those developers that did. E.G. cover-flow.

So wait wait wait you really think apple came up with the touch screen multi touch idea?

The New York Times > Log In

 

[HustlinDaily]

http://www.billbuxton.com/multitouchOverview.html

 

[tazziedevil]

that's interesting. Thanks for posting that, IOWA.

 

[tazziedevil]

Wow. I had no idea there was a capacitance based, touch screen tablet in 1985.

I feel a bit stupid now- I've used a Wacom tablet for years- basically a touch sensitive pad and didn't even realize it. D'oh!

I cant wait to hear again how Apple "invented" the touchscreen smart phone, when there was one around in 1992- "the Simon."

 

[mrspeedmaster]

So wait wait wait you really think apple came up with the touch screen multi touch idea?]

Once again, you are not good at reading comprehension. I am aware of Bill Buxton's writing and he gives credit where credit is due.

If you have a grasp of the English language, you would note I don't make broad statements and I tend to qualify them....I'll requote what I said

Multi-touch capacitive, small pda/phone device.

I don't like to leave myself open for misinterpretation.

Like the mouse which had a history 25 years prior to its commercial introduction. Apple was the first to implement it in the small capacitive screen PDA/phone form-factor.

Go read some more of Bill Buxton's commentary.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

Wow. I had no idea there was a capacitance based, touch screen tablet in 1985.

I feel a bit stupid now- I've used a Wacom tablet for years- basically a touch sensitive pad and didn't even realize it. D'oh!

I cant wait to hear again how Apple "invented" the touchscreen smart phone, when there was one around in 1992- "the Simon."

You are grasping for straws. Multi-touch does not equate to capacitive. Do you know the difference? Do you know what you just said? Is the WACOM TABLET the direct UI front-end or is it an input mechanism?

Again grasping for straws? Even a stylus input device like the Newton can be called a touch screen device. It is not capacitive-pressure sensitive.

Again, grasping for straws. Everyone knows about the 1992 Simon. That is common knowledge in the PDA historical timeline.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

I am SO glad someone brought up Bill Buxton. The man is a genius and you should really read what he has to say; especially about the iPhone and what Apple brought to the table. The man is the historical legend and front man in UI and mult-touch computing.. Thanks for making this debate interesting..

 

[tazziedevil]

Grasping at Straws? No, I'm reading history which tells me that no matter how much you want to argue, Apple did not invent touch screen technology, and they were not the first ones to put in a phone.

 

[Smg]

Android as a platform needs to step-up in terms of user-experience. Having a fast phone can only do so much. The 3GS (despite it's slower, slower) cpu can still auto-orient faster than all 3 1ghz snap-dragon phones (Nexus/Incredible/Evo).

YouTube - HTC Desire and SE X10 browser

Yeah the iPhone looks soo much faster...lol

 

[mrspeedmaster]

Grasping at Straws? No, I'm reading history which tells me that no matter how much you want to argue, Apple did not invent touch screen technology, and they were not the first ones to put in a phone.

Again, you have reading mis-comprehensions. I even bolded out what I said.

They introduced multi-touch in a small capacitive pda/phone form factor. Please point out, bold, quote where I say "invent."


And since you were so quick to jump on the Bill Buxton link, I suggest you read his writings. He is the father/historical expert on this. I suggest you go out and listen to his speeches/seminars. He clearly acknowledges the revolutionary nature of good design. The guy tells it like it is. Since you are so happy to point out his writing as ancillary evidence in your quick quip. See what he has to say about Jonathan Ives, Steve Jobs and the design culture of an organization that emphasizes their primary focus of design for innovation. It can really open your narrow mind if you care to read his analysis and learn from his breadth of knowledge. This guy is a principle researcher at Microsoft. Everyone in the phone industry looks to him for insight. He sure knows more about this space than all of us combine.

 

[IOWA]

So let's hold the fort for a second. Because apple takes already existing tech, and throws it in a smaller device, due to new hardware capabilities NOT created by them, THAT makes them innovative?

:lost:

Tapatalk. Samsung Moment. Yep.

 

[Slug]

This is all fascinating but has drifted a long way from the OP's topic. Let's leave out the history lessons and e-peen waving and get back to the issue in hand, please. And try to do it without being condescending or snide when faced with a contrary opinion.