Soppy Do Gooders and Scaredy Cats

SiempreTuna · Sep 18, 2013

It seems that our political leanings are genetically pre-determined: liberals are soppy do gooders with an over-optimistic view of humanity and the world while conservatives are eternally terrified by their over-pessimistic view of the same.

Guess that basically means discussion is pointless

My reading is that both views are too extreme and that people need to be aware of their natural tendencies when considering issues - so much easier said than done

One hilarious thing: the article shows how conversatives have an extreme, psuedo-Darwinian, survival of the fittest view of the world - while so many deny evolution exists :rofl:

dibblebill · Sep 18, 2013

That is irony, indeed, but my views have changed drastically in the last 5-10 years, so I'm not sure how much stock I put in it as predetermined completely.

EDIT: I also wonder how over-simplified Salon's article is compared to the original research

SiempreTuna · Sep 18, 2013

dibblebill said:
That is irony, indeed, but my views have changed drastically in the last 5-10 years, so I'm not sure how much stock I put in it as predetermined completely

I guess that could kind of tie in with the basic tenet that liberals are more optimisitc while conservative are more pessimistic: many young people start out sunny optimists only to be ground down by reality

Of course, where that idea kinda falls down is that apparently, people are at their happiest in middle age. Maybe happiness equals finally accepting that 'stuff' happens

dibblebill said:
EDIT: I also wonder how over-simplified Salon's article is compared to the original research

Doubtless it is over simplified. The idea is not a new one, though and the story did contain several links to further information (which I didn't follow

).

dibblebill · Sep 18, 2013

SiempreTuna said:
I guess that could kind of tie in with the basic tenet that liberals are more optimisitc while conservative are more pessimistic: many young people start out sunny optimists only to be ground down by reality

Of course, where that idea kinda falls down is that apparently, people are at their happiest in middle age. Maybe happiness equals finally accepting that 'stuff' happens

Doubtless it is over simplified. The idea is not a new one, though and the story did contain several links to further information (which I didn't follow ).

There's been a lot of similar research done that has implications regarding free will and how un-free it actually is, as of late. Especially in neurology..

ElasticNinja · Oct 2, 2013

SiempreTuna said:
One hilarious thing: the article shows how conversatives have an extreme, psuedo-Darwinian, survival of the fittest view of the world - while so many deny evolution exists :rofl:

In all fairness, US 'conservatives' do a disservice to actual conservatives everywhere. You don't see Angela Merkel or Reccip Erdoğan denying climate change on a regular basis for example.

Don't let the Yanks get you down. The real threat over here are the isolationists and the far right.

SiempreTuna · Oct 3, 2013

ElasticNinja said:
In all fairness, US 'conservatives' do a disservice to actual conservatives everywhere

True .. to some extent

ElasticNinja said:
You don't see Angela Merkel or Reccip Erdoğan denying climate change on a regular basis for example

The Conservatives in the UK do, though. Absolutely incredibly, the minister directly responsible for addressing Climate Change, the Secretary of State for the Environment, Owen Paterson is a reality - sorry, Climate Change - denier :eek:

I'm also pretty sure Angela Merkel's government fought to prevent fuel efficiency and emmission control legislation at the european level in order to 'protect' German car manufacturers.

Ironically, of course, the car market is increasing demanding more fuel efficient vehicles so this actually resulted in German auto makers being behind the curve then having to scramble desperately to try to catch up - so typical of right wing short sightedness.

dibblebill · Oct 3, 2013

Some of them. Others, VW Group, have had 40+mpg cars for decades now.

SiempreTuna · Oct 3, 2013

dibblebill said:
Some of them. Others, VW Group, have had 40+mpg cars for decades now.

VW group is actually one of the worst: the reason I got a Beemer this time is that when I was looking, the latest A4 got exactly the same MPG as one built 10 years ago. Like, don't they watch the news :thinking:

BMW just lie about the MPG their vehicles get

dibblebill · Oct 3, 2013

Interesting. My VW (granted, I got the TDI) gets well over 40mpg highway, and I get well over the posted city mileage too. My friend got a Golf R and had similar results. The gas engines are on average, but they do offer fuel efficient vehicles. Granted, our cars are new, but people have been talking about the insane mileage their TDI's get for well over a decade.

We're talking about the company with a 80mpg 900-horsepower supercar, a 260mpg two-seater, and other cars. Everything I see in Motor Trend, Car and Driver, and review sites says they're at the forefront of fuel efficiency and alternative fuels. A 2-ton SUV with a V12, 800lb-ft of torque, and 21mpg highway.

SiempreTuna · Oct 4, 2013

I was talking TDI as well - I haven't driven anything else for well over a decade

I probably made this point before, but to illustrate just how dire car companies have been at addressing fuel efficiency, compare the average car's top speed with the land speed record and the average car's mileage with the fuel efficiency record: your average car manages around 13% of the land speed record (100mph v 763mph) but only 0.3% of the fuel efficiency record (50mpg v 15,000mpg). Play with the numbers if you like, but it's always going to be a 30 - 40 fold difference.

Further, the land speed record was achieved by massively expensive specialist teams on salt flats in exceptional circumstance where fuel efficiency competitions are usually between cars built by students on miniscule budgets, are held on standard roads and the teams still regularly achieve 8 - 9,000mpg.

Don't get me wrong: a car that does 80mpg is definitely a step in the right diretion, but when college students have access to the technology to get over 9,000mpg, it is a pretty pathetically small step.

As for VW, my understanding is that the fuel efficiency tech you describe above is (or certainly was when I was looking) an (expensive) optional extra on their vehicles but is the same stuff that comes as standard on Beemers - as I say, the reason that, after a decade in VWs and Audis, I made the switch.

dibblebill · Oct 4, 2013

Ah. Maybe the BMW's available for you are different from ours. I couldn't get anywhere near the mileage I get with my TDI when I looked at the BMW's at a local lot. Price notwithstanding (the TDI was much more affordable), the best I got was 36 (American) mpg out of a 335d.

That Porsche is so expensive they GIVE you a free one to go with it... lol

Those salt flat cars are also stripped down, specialized engines with superlight chassis, almost zero drag coefficient, on, as you said, salt flats. I'd like to see what those student groups come up with when told to produce a practical 4-seater (unless they already have and I missed something).

ElasticNinja · Oct 5, 2013

SiempreTuna said:
True .. to some extent

The Conservatives in the UK do, though. Absolutely incredibly, the minister directly responsible for addressing Climate Change, the Secretary of State for the Environment, Owen Paterson is a reality - sorry, Climate Change - denier

I'm also pretty sure Angela Merkel's government fought to prevent fuel efficiency and emmission control legislation at the european level in order to 'protect' German car manufacturers.

Ironically, of course, the car market is increasing demanding more fuel efficient vehicles so this actually resulted in German auto makers being behind the curve then having to scramble desperately to try to catch up - so typical of right wing short sightedness.

Oh indeed, I know all this. However a lot of this stuff is more "don't interfere so much", sort of twaddle, rather than outright denial.

That said, with the Tories, unfortunately the quite large lunatic fringe of the backbenchers has penetrated the ministries and right into the cabinet.

patrickt · Oct 8, 2013

The OP was incredible simple. Liberals see humanity as evil and flawed and requiring a government to control them. Conservatives see people as basically decent and the government as needing to be controlled. As for the snarky little comment about "so many" denying evolution, how many? I suspect there are more nitwits who think healthcare can be free then think evolution doesn't happen.

dibblebill · Oct 8, 2013

Traditional conservatism does, patrickt. Modern conservatives are socially conservative and actively attempt to push forward an imperialist, militarized agenda. Personally, I prefer classical Liberalism of the Bastiat school.

patrickt · Oct 8, 2013

Sorry. You're talking to a modern conservative. You're stereotype doesn't work.

dibblebill · Oct 8, 2013

Stereotype? Its the calling card of the "conservative" Republican Party and its platform. You should check your platform and see if you actually even match up with it.

SiempreTuna · Oct 9, 2013

patrickt said:
The OP was incredible simple. Liberals see humanity as evil and flawed and requiring a government to control them

Really?!

Have you spoken to a liberal recently? I think you'll find they think the complete opposite, hence their belief that we should treat all people - even the much maligned (by conservatives) poor - with respect.

patrickt said:
Conservatives see people as basically decent and the government as needing to be controlled

Judging by comments on this forum, self-identifying conservatives are absolutely adamant that a vast number of their fellow citizens are pathalogically lazy, almost certainly criminal and solely concerned with screwing the system - not sure how that is seeing people as 'basically decent'.

You may have a different view, but the evidence (I know that's a dirty word to the right) would suggest you're in a minority.

patrickt said:
As for the snarky little comment about "so many" denying evolution, how many?

Easy one: the majoriy of republicans do not believe in evolution (took me literally seconds to find the evidence).

So not snarky at all - in fact, vastly understating the problem.

patrickt said:
I suspect there are more nitwits who think healthcare can be free then think evolution doesn't happen.

Does anyone think it can free :thinking:

All I've seen are arguments about how it should be funded.

mrsmumbles · Oct 9, 2013

SiempreTuna said:
It seems that our political leanings are genetically pre-determined: liberals are soppy do gooders with an over-optimistic view of humanity and the world while conservatives are eternally terrified by their over-pessimistic view of the same.

Guess that basically means discussion is pointless

My reading is that both views are too extreme and that people need to be aware of their natural tendencies when considering issues - so much easier said than done

One hilarious thing: the article shows how conversatives have an extreme, psuedo-Darwinian, survival of the fittest view of the world - while so many deny evolution exists :rofl:

Not true. I began as a liberal and was most of my life. I guess I grew up. Maybe you will one day, too.

SiempreTuna · Oct 10, 2013

mrsmumbles said:
Not true. I began as a liberal and was most of my life. I guess I grew up. Maybe you will one day, too.

Not quite sure what point you're trying to make: I made the same journey, just in the opposite direction - I no longer choose to believe the "math you do as a Republican to make yourself feel better" because I believe it's better to look at actual evidence (a dirty word to the right, for obvious reasons, I know).

You may feel your journey was a process of 'growning up', but the thing is, personal experience is neccessarily limited - think Black Swan - that's why it's better to look at proper, peer-reviewed research to get an idea of the big picture.

If you do that, you'll realise that, unless you're actually part of the 1% (or better, the 0.1%) the right wing has simply suckered you.

mrsmumbles · Oct 10, 2013

SiempreTuna said:
Not quite sure what point you're trying to make: I made the same journey, just in the opposite direction - I no longer choose to believe the "math you do as a Republican to make yourself feel better" because I believe it's better to look at actual evidence (a dirty word to the right, for obvious reasons, I know).

You may feel your journey was a process of 'growning up', but the thing is, personal experience is neccessarily limited - think Black Swan - that's why it's better to look at proper, peer-reviewed research to get an idea of the big picture.

If you do that, you'll realise that, unless you're actually part of the 1% (or better, the 0.1%) the right wing has simply suckered you.

I have no idea what you're talking about. What math are you referring to? What evidence?

Anyway, I'm a libertarian. It irritates me to read liberal rot regarding what you think is true of conservatives, though. There's so much arrogance among liberals it's very much like a child who thinks he knows everything and his parents just roll their eyes.

mrsmumbles · Oct 10, 2013

What it boils down to is liberals believe people aren't as capable of taking care of themselves and making their own decisions, so they create programs to think for us so we don't have to.

Conservatives believe each individual has the right to do his/her own thinking.

Not saying either side is perfect by any means.

If we wanted to make an analogy between smart phones, liberals would be iPhone users because everything is done for you.

Conservatives would be android users because it requires more individual responsibility.

You guys here will not appreciate that comparison but it's apt.

dibblebill · Oct 10, 2013

Mind you, you must not be talking about neoconservatives that compose 90-95% of the Republican Party. If I may inquire, which way did you vote in 2012?

SiempreTuna · Oct 11, 2013

mrsmumbles said:
I have no idea what you're talking about. What math are you referring to? What evidence?

The (famous) quote is from Sky 'News' presenter Megyn Kelly talking to Karl Rove on election night about his extraordinary - and singularly conservative - ability to deny reality and maintain the GOP were gonna win when they had already cleary been absolutely stuffed.

mrsmumbles said:
It irritates me to read liberal rot

:rofl:

I love the assumption that anything scientific and evidence-based must be liberal

mrsmumbles said:
If we wanted to make an analogy between smart phones, liberals would be iPhone users because everything is done for you

Surely it would be the other way around, given the fact conservatives have one answer to absolutely any question: cut taxes.

Soppy Do Gooders and Scaredy Cats

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