Help Why are unwanted apps always running in the background? Android flaw?

CaptainSunset · Jul 28, 2016

svim said:
Wait a minute or two for all the background processes you don't see to load and then go into Task Manager and take note of the used memory number.

But wait! There's more! :thinking:

Also, there are several Tabs in window's Task Manager ; Applications/Processes/Services/Performance/Networking/Users

For example, right now, in Applications, I am only showing Firefox, Chrome, and Thunderbird as running.
But in Processes, there are over 50 processes running, and twice that number of Services.
2/3 of my RAM is in use, and I only have 5 Tabs open- the rest is active security, and various other Task Host chores.
Norton tells me my machine is optimized...

CaptainSunset · Jul 28, 2016

Afterthought: I guess an important question would be: does an Apple phone do things any differently?

cdl · Jul 28, 2016

CaptainSunset said:
Afterthought: I guess an important question would be: does an Apple phone do things any differently?

Yes, I'd be curious to understand how Iphones and Windows Phones work in this regard. And, most of all, if they have a materially better battery management than Android , which I doubt - people haven't exactly been shouting from the rooftops that Iphones last twice as long as Androids...

I seem to remember that the Symbian OS in Nokias made it easier to exit programs and to be sure they wouldn't restart automatically.

I don't have a lot of faith in Microsoft making a decent mobile OS, though. I still remember this lousy Windows phone I had in 2004: http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_mpx200-514.php Super slow, it reformatted itself out of the blue twice, and the battery didn't even last a day (without internet connection, that is).

cdl · Jul 28, 2016

codesplice said:
We're likely in agreement there.

I hope that we were at least able to help you understand how Android works, even if you don't agree that it's an approach which makes sense.

Yep, I appreciate the clarifications. Thanks a lot, guys!

cdl · Jul 28, 2016

chanchan05 said:
However, wakelock detectors can still be made to work without root. You just need to use a PC to interface with the phone via ADB or a proprietary software, and you can get access to it no root needed. Basically it's just manually inputting a command via ADB to the system. It's like plugging a switch to turn on a light because the switch was missing.

I didn't know; that's very useful - thanks!

cdl · Aug 1, 2016

Slug said:
It's an email client... its job is to check regularly for email. If the developer has implemented behaviour that you don't like then take it up with him, but don't blame Android for it. It's easy enough to put an "exit" or "quit" option in a menu.

Not quite, or, well, not only. Good (in name only: most users hate it, just look at the reviews) is a system to connect to a work intranet, and access work email, calendar, notes, remote files, etc, especially from your own personal device. It makes perfect sense to want to quit such an app at certain times.

Also, you talk about apps misbehaving being the app's fault, not Android's. But what when it's Android itself that misbehaves? Just yesterday I had to factory reset my sony z3 because the media scanner kept running all the time, slowing down my phone and draining the battery, even after removing the microsd card. Now, after the usual IT solution of wiping everything with a factory reset, the media scanner is behaving, but I have a constant wakelock from a service called fingerprint_scanner_local , which wakelock detector says it's part of google play services. What on earth is it? My phone doesn't even have a fingerprint reader. Sure, it may be because some badly coded third party app is calling it, but why on Earth is it so hard to find the culprit?

I am not a huge fan of Windows, but I have never heard of any Windows laptop dying in no time because some misbehaving program kept running all the time; a simple google search, instead, reveals that this problem is all too common with Android.

No, I don't have a better alternative - I am not going to switch to an iphone - but this doesn't mean I shouldn't recognise this as a fundamental flaw in Android.

mikedt · Aug 1, 2016

cdl said:
I am not a huge fan of Windows, but I have never heard of any Windows laptop dying in no time because some misbehaving program kept running all the time; a simple google search, instead, reveals that this problem is all too common with Android.

You're in the United States?

cdl · Aug 1, 2016

mikedt said:
You're in the United States?

Nope, on the other side of the pond: in the UK. Why?

chanchan05 · Aug 1, 2016

cdl said:
I am not a huge fan of Windows, but I have never heard of any Windows laptop dying in no time because some misbehaving program kept running all the time; a simple google search, instead, reveals that this problem is all too common with Android.

Because of the bigger batteries on laptops, and the fact that no one really notices their laptop battery life as much as their phones. People leave their phones on all the time and expect it to last through the day. They don't expect such of laptops. They work for 3hrs, and if they need to charge they plug in. They don't really notice it that, hey, why is my laptop running only for 3hrs instead of 5? I work a lot on my laptop and I have never really noticed how long my laptop runs on battery.

Also the OS design is vastly different. Windows is designed as a work station. Where things come up only as you call it. Android is designed as a mobile connectivity device. Where apps are allowed to trigger themselves on as needed. Otherwise, the functions of these apps won't work.

Let's take Facebook as an example. On a Windows PC, it only comes up when you open a browser and login. On an Android it is designed to be able to alert you 24/7 of its various notifications and messages. That's the real crux. The difference in what both OS are designed. You keep on comparing it to Windows, when in fact the very thing you call a 'flaw' is the basic design of Android and all other current mobile OS whether iOS or Windows Mobile. You can't call allowing apps to run in the background a flaw, when the OS itself was designed to do that. It is put there intentionally, because that's what it's supposed to do. Windows on a laptop isn't supposed to alert you of new Facebook messages or comments, which is why it doesn't allow Facebook to run in the background (although you can do this using Chrome if you want to). Facebook in Android is designed specifically so that it will alert you of every single thing, even the fact that a fried is in close vicinity, by running in the background. Hence Facebook is a real battery killer on an Android, but not on a Windows laptop. But then, this isn't a flaw in Android OS, or even Facebook. Because that's exactly how they were designed to work.

cdl · Aug 1, 2016

chanchan05 said:
Let's take Facebook as an example. On a Windows PC, it only comes up when you open a browser and login. On an Android it is designed to be able to alert you 24/7 of its various notifications and messages.

I get this. Incidentally, I do not have Facebook on my phone.
My criticism is that with Android it is close to impossible to identify misbehaving apps which keep waking up the phone or using the CPU at maximum frequency. These are not once-in-a-blue-moon kind of events. Just look at how many incidents are reported online of people having huge issues with some misterious app keeping the phone awake and draining all the battery.

You need to be rooted to identify wakelocks (or to fiddle connecting the phone to a PC); once you do, chances are you will identify a service (e.g. Google's location services), NOT the app which calls it (a weather app? a public transport app? etc).

Over the last 10 days I have had to factory reset my phone 3 times. Yesterday something kept the phone running at max CPU frequency, overheating it and draining the battery. I utterly failed to identify what it was and why it was doing that. Today I have had media scanner going nuts and draining all my battery, even with the sd card removed, and a mysterious service called fingerprint_scanner_local (my Z3 doesn't even have a fingerprint scanner) keeping the phone awake.

Is it Android's fault if some developer came up with a badly coded app which is causing these issues? No.
But it is Android's fault for making it effectively impossible to identify these apps; in most cases, the only option available is the nuclear option of wiping the phone and reinstalling everything from scratch, losing a few hours in the process of restoring all the apps and settings.
I don't personally care how an OS is structured. I'm talking as an end user, not as a developer. All I want is a phone which works, and which lets me easily identify which app misbehaves. Android fails miserably on this last point.

Would you disagree? Would you say it is easy to identify misbehaving apps with Android?

chanchan05 · Aug 1, 2016

cdl said:
I get this. Incidentally, I do not have Facebook on my phone.
My criticism is that with Android it is close to impossible to identify misbehaving apps which keep waking up the phone or using the CPU at maximum frequency. These are not once-in-a-blue-moon kind of events. Just look at how many incidents are reported online of people having huge issues with some misterious app keeping the phone awake and draining all the battery.

You need to be rooted to identify wakelocks (or to fiddle connecting the phone to a PC); once you do, chances are you will identify a service (e.g. Google's location services), NOT the app which calls it (a weather app? a public transport app? etc).

Over the last 10 days I have had to factory reset my phone 3 times. Yesterday something kept the phone running at max CPU frequency, overheating it and draining the battery. I utterly failed to identify what it was and why it was doing that. Today I have had media scanner going nuts and draining all my battery, even with the sd card removed, and a mysterious service called fingerprint_scanner_local (my Z3 doesn't even have a fingerprint scanner) keeping the phone awake.

Is it Android's fault if some developer came up with a badly coded app which is causing these issues? No.
But it is Android's fault for making it effectively impossible to identify these apps; in most cases, the only option available is the nuclear option of wiping the phone and reinstalling everything from scratch, losing a few hours in the process of restoring all the apps and settings.
I don't personally care how an OS is structured. I'm talking as an end user, not as a developer. All I want is a phone which works, and which lets me easily identify which app misbehaves. Android fails miserably on this last point.

Would you disagree? Would you say it is easy to identify misbehaving apps with Android?

Personally no. It's difficult for us to identify what's wrong on your device. It's relatively easy for me on my device. Most likely it would be the one I last installed or updated, especially if the phone was working perfectly fine before. Checking currently running processes is also available in the settings, which can help identify culprits. Anything that has been running and keeping the phone awake unusually long would be suspect.

cdl · Aug 1, 2016

chanchan05 said:
Personally no. It's difficult for us to identify what's wrong on your device. It's relatively easy for me on my device. Most likely it would be the one I last installed or updated, especially if the phone was working perfectly fine before. Checking currently running processes is also available in the settings, which can help identify culprits. Anything that has been running and keeping the phone awake unusually long would be suspect.

I guess I wasn't clear. Let me rephrase the question:

A process like media scanner or google play services (now used to locate the phone) can be called by a number of different apps. If I see that google play services is draining my battery, like I saw today before I reset my phone for the 4th time, is there any way to identify which, of the many apps which could, is calling it? Knowing it's google play services is of little use because so many apps can call it, and I cannot disable such a fundamental service. If you were in my situation, what would you do once you learnt it was google play services?

I also uninstalled all the weather apps and the public transport apps, but to no avail. Yes, of course the last installed app is the most likely suspect, but in the cases I mentioned I hadn't installed any new app.

chanchan05 · Aug 1, 2016

cdl said:
I guess I wasn't clear. Let me rephrase the question:

A process like media scanner or google play services (now used to locate the phone) can be called by a number of different apps. If I see that google play services is draining my battery, like I saw today before I reset my phone for the 4th time, is there any way to identify which, of the many apps which could, is calling it? Knowing it's google play services is of little use because so many apps can call it, and I cannot disable such a fundamental service. If you were in my situation, what would you do once you learnt it was google play services?

I also uninstalled all the weather apps and the public transport apps, but to no avail. Yes, of course the last installed app is the most likely suspect, but in the cases I mentioned I hadn't installed any new app.

I honestly haven't seen media scanner running for the last 5 years, since my Galaxy S, so I can say about that.

First thing I would do about Google Play Services running wild would be to look at the running services and see which ones do call up Play Services. In my case, these are games. Most apps I use I choose to not save to Google, except for games. Hence, I can narrow down the apps by looking at the running services. Granted though this comes from a knowledge base of 6 years using Android and reading up in forums like this.

cdl · Aug 2, 2016

chanchan05 said:
I honestly haven't seen media scanner running for the last 5 years, since my Galaxy S, so I can say about that.

First thing I would do about Google Play Services running wild would be to look at the running services and see which ones do call up Play Services.

How do I do that? Do you mean there is a way to track which apps have called google play services, or do you mean it's about looking at the running processes and making an educated guess?

If it's the latter, it's very hard for me to find the culprit because just about anything can call google play services; it is not used only for games (I have no games) but also for location services, so it is called by weather apps, public transport apps, etc.

chanchan05 · Aug 2, 2016

cdl said:
How do I do that? Do you mean there is a way to track which apps have called google play services, or do you mean it's about looking at the running processes and making an educated guess?

If it's the latter, it's very hard for me to find the culprit because just about anything can call google play services; it is not used only for games (I have no games) but also for location services, so it is called by weather apps, public transport apps, etc.

Yes but again that depends on how the apps were set up. Like in my case, my weather app uses accuweather so it doesn't use Play Services. It might call up Google Maps, but that's a separate service from Play Services. In my case I already know the expected behavior of my apps.

The difference in Android and Windows thay creates the difficulty you mention is that in Windows, each program is self contained. Everything it needs is in the installation. It doesn't really need to call up additional services. But then again, that's also why they are so big. Size is an issue on mobile devices. Hence they just use existing services, instead of every single app being 200mb in size.

cdl · Aug 10, 2016

After all the issues I had with my Sony Z3, I changed it to a Sony Z5. I didn't want to upgrade it to Marshamllow, but it came with Marshmallow out of the box. Well, Marshmallow's Doze functionality, which cannot be fully turned off on non-rooted devices, has effectively broken push notifications. It's insane!

Android went from one extreme to the other: from a flawed OS, which caused battery drain because too many apps were running in the background when they were not supposed to, and with users unable to prevent it, to a flawed OS which, in its misguided attempt at improving battery life, doesn’t let users have the apps they want running in the background when they want!

Yes, I know many of you don't agree with my opinion and blame the odd badly-coded app, but, if it wall down to a few poorly coded apps, then Google would have had no reason to introduce Doze in the first place!

I have found a partial solution, using MacroDroid to wake up the phone every 45 minutes, before Doze kicks in: this ensure push email (which is very important for me; I appreciate it may be irrelevant for others) works properly. I posted more details here: http://androidforums.com/threads/ma...x-is-preventing-doze-with-macrodroid.1058445/

chanchan05 · Aug 10, 2016

cdl said:
After all the issues I had with my Sony Z3, I changed it to a Sony Z5. I didn't want to upgrade it to Marshamllow, but it came with Marshmallow out of the box. Well, Marshmallow's Doze functionality, which cannot be fully turned off on non-rooted devices, has effectively broken push notifications. It's insane!

Android went from one extreme to the other: from a flawed OS, which caused battery drain because too many apps were running in the background when they were not supposed to, and with users unable to prevent it, to a flawed OS which, in its misguided attempt at improving battery life, doesn’t let users have the apps they want running in the background when they want!

Yes, I know many of you don't agree with my opinion and blame the odd badly-coded app, but, if it wall down to a few poorly coded apps, then Google would have had no reason to introduce Doze in the first place!

I have found a partial solution, using MacroDroid to wake up the phone every 45 minutes, before Doze kicks in: this ensure push email (which is very important for me; I appreciate it may be irrelevant for others) works properly. I posted more details here: http://androidforums.com/threads/ma...x-is-preventing-doze-with-macrodroid.1058445/

On Samsungs, there is a setting to choose which apps get dozed and which won't. Does Sony not have the same?

cdl · Aug 10, 2016

chanchan05 said:
On Samsungs, there is a setting to choose which apps get dozed and which won't. Does Sony not have the same?

You are mistaken. It's a common misconception, incorrectly reported by a number of websites, and exacerbated by Google's infuriating lack of clarity on this matter. However, Doze cannot be fully disabled, for any app. The setting you mention is only a partial exemption. I discuss the details in my other discussion I had linked: http://androidforums.com/threads/marshmallow’s-doze-broke-push-notifications-my-fix-is-preventing-doze-with-macrodroid.1058445/

Android’s official page explains that whitelisting an app (settings – battery – battery optimisation) does not completely exempt it from Doze: https://developer.android.com/train...doze-standby.html#support_for_other_use_cases

An app that is whitelisted can use the network and hold partial wake locks during Doze and App Standby. However, other restrictions still apply to the whitelisted app, just as they do to other apps. For example, the whitelisted app’s jobs and syncs are deferred, and its regularAlarmManager alarms do not fire.

Notably, the acceptable use cases https://developer.android.com/training/monitoring-device-state/doze-standby.html#whitelisting-cases do NOT mention email clients!

As of now, no solution has been found to make imap idle work with Doze.

My other discussion also has links to the forums of K9 mail and Aqua mail: as of now, neither development team has found a way to make push email work with Doze.

I understand why Doze can make sense in a number of cases, but it is insane and unacceptable that it cannot be turned off - unless you are rooted, but in my case I cannot root otherwise the app to connect to work email won't work.

cdl · Aug 10, 2016

chanchan05 said:
The difference in Android and Windows thay creates the difficulty you mention is that in Windows, each program is self contained. Everything it needs is in the installation. It doesn't really need to call up additional services.

So Windows has no system-level APIs? Each Windows executable relies on its own hardware drivers, its own implementation of network protocols, etc?

chanchan05 · Aug 10, 2016

cdl said:
So Windows has no system-level APIs? Each Windows executable relies on its own hardware drivers, its own implementation of network protocols, etc?

I'm not talking about system level APIs. I'm talking about resources. A Windows program will use drivers, but it will not ask another program for help. Outlook will not ask Chrome or Firefox help in opening an email, for example. In Android's case it is possible for an app to call up another app like Google Maps for its location services, and use Google Maps generated data. This makes it more difficult to pinpoint stuff in Android as compared to Windows, but would seem to me a necessary concession.

Mudasir khan · Aug 13, 2016

codesplice said:
That's entirely up to the app. Games generally don't have a reason to run in the background (unless they're going to harass you with periodic notifications). It's not up to Android to decide whether an app has a legitimate need to run as a background service or not, it's up to the developers to code their apps correctly. Apps misbehave on Windows all the fricking time too.

Doze isn't just about Internet access, but that is a component of it. And yes, Doze includes a whitelist feature. (On my Nexus, Settings > Battery > (menu) > Battery optimization) Apps which are "not optimized" are not subject to Doze's restrictions and can generally do what they want. While I expect timely notifications of emails and other messages, the only non-system apps that I have excluded from Doze are Android Wear and Tasker - the former to allow notifications to find their way to my watch even while my phone's been idle for a while, and the latter to allow it to perform certain automated actions based on time/location/network state/etc.

They don't have to - and many would argue that they shouldn't. Manufacturer-included tools perpetuate the myth that Android can't manage things on its own. The truth is that the task killers included by many manufacturers fight against how task management is designed to work on the OS. This results in applications that aren't able to correctly save their state before being terminated and must then be redrawn from scratch when they start again rather than picking up where they left off. Missed/delayed notifications are also a symptom of this mismanagement.

I've not personally used Stamina, but have done a bit of reading on it since you keep bringing it up. From what I've seen, it really is pretty much a more aggressive implementation of Doze. The only big difference I found is that Stamina kicks in one minute after the device goes to sleep, while Doze has a longer delay (and stricter requirements) for when it can activate. (FWIW, Doze has been further improved for Android 7.0 and is now much less particular for when it kicks in. Standby time for my Nexus running the preview has been very good.)

In fact, Stamina was largely removed for Android 6.0-based releases because it conflicted with Doze (and Google doesn't let OEMs tamper with Doze).

The name "Stamina" did recently make a return to Android 6.0 builds from Sony, but it seems to be pretty much a rebranded version of the Battery Saver mode added to stock Android 5.0; this just adjusts certain settings (vibration, brightness, display timeout, animations, etc) below a specified battery level to try to stretch the power that's left. Again, it doesn't do anything that's not already a part of Android.

Like I mentioned, the problem is the apps, not the OS they run on. The OS shouldn't just go around clubbing every little baby seal head that pops up. It doesn't really have a way to know which ones are fair game to smack around.

It's less of an impact than it would be to not cache the apps and start them from scratch each time they were needed. And, again, this is the way that Android was designed to function.

thats not some thing that much serious sir. You can easily turn off the notifications from settings of the those apps or games

Silver Sol · May 27, 2020

svim said:
You need to distinguish apps have different functions and different purposes. An app that only does a singular task will only require it to be running in memory when needed. If it remains partially loaded into memory is a complete nonissue, but the fact is until you actually launch the app it's inert -- it is taking up storage memory space but not RAM. An app like an email client however will need to be running in memory when you are actually using it but in the background to periodically poll your email service's online servers. (and note a lot of email client apps do have settings so they won't check for new messages but that's another issue.) An app that's by design is required to run in the background is different than one that isn't, you can't lump all of them together just out of convenience to make some point.

Windows kept only system executable application in memory at all times, the Android version loads every application in my phone into RAM and even with the 4gb RAM and 32GB ROM the phone keeps slowing to a worse than 1gb RAM phone.

Happening now on my new Android phone and tablet.

Essentially it's the programming language syntax for memory use while executing the program in Windows or Application in Android which makes a difference.

If the memory use at the programming is lousy written it then sets the CPU central processing unit, into a loop , this slows down the phone or tablet PC significantly.

So if this occurred in a Windows computer it soon became obvious this was a bad written program and was uninstalled. However with all the apps loaded on startup in Android, even one poorly programmed app seems to be messing around with the operation of RAM, looping or constantly calling, as known in programming, to different modules inside the application programming code compilation. With 52 apps on the phone all in executive mode, it's a frustrating nuisance in slowing down the phone, and difficult to know which application is causing the issue.

My memory boost app, often clears up to four hundred or more Megabytes RAM application hogs.

One solution is Remove any unnecessary applications, Or if a sudden slowing occurred after a recent new Android application is installed try delete it immediately and see if the phone speed has improvement. Most applications are well written but not all applications. A way to get info is to see reviews before installing. If there is loads of complaints about slow process it could be a indicated problem, if millions of people have downloaded it then probably works well.

Help Why are unwanted apps always running in the background? Android flaw?

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