13g of data used after 3 weeks

[Deleted User]

Arrhghghghghghghghgh.

This is not about equal usage for equal tasks. It's about anticipated usage for a given medium.

It's why website providers can offer "unlimited" transfers, and airlines regularly overbook their planes and warranties for electronics range from months to years depending on their expected usage. It's about a company being able to estimate what they expect the average user to consume, and pricing accordingly.

People do not use their phones in the same manner that they use their desktops. The very nature of each device lends itself to different bandwidth consumption. A small screen, no keyboard, no mouse and lower processing power is going to limit the windows you can open, limit the things you will download (e.g. games, large apps, Windows updates), limit the sites you will visit. I might have 6 screens open with live game updates during football games on Sundays. I couldn't possibly keep all of that going on my phone or be able to switch fast enough. I download apps that are hundreds of megabytes. I download hundreds of megs of updates for my system. I download giant wallpapers to fill my 1080p display. Everyone does this all the time only they don't pay much attention to it.

ALSO, most people want an internet connection for their laptop/desktop, so Verizon can factor in the probability that most people have a home internet connection that will alleviate some of the data load. If tethering was a free-for-all, that assumption needs to be thrown out the window as people may well use it for their primary internet connection.

 

[mxsjw]

Theifs never think they are in the wrong, but everyone else gets to pay for their wrong doing...leaches!

^Like I said on the 1st page. Once they've justified themselves in their mind, you will not sway them to what's right.

I wonder how bad the theives will whine if they're made to pay fines like the music/movie snatchers.

 

[rehpyc]

Come on, Verizon advertises it as an unlimited data plan, so I'm just using the data in accordance of it being unlimited

Why are we even really arguing? Nobody knows how the LTE data will be priced, or what tiers of usage will be provided at respective prices, and for those who don't care to move to LTE when its available for them.. they'll continue on their $30 package. It's not as if those of us on 3G packages have to pay any more or less due to someone else tethering for free. Our $30 will be grandfathered as long as we choose to stick with 3G.

Verizon isn't losing money by a small percentage of individuals tethering for free. They are, however, making a huge amount over unused minutes and especially over the outrageously priced texting plans. Upon getting my X from a non-smartphone, I went from a $15 texting plan to a $5 one and use Google Voice for my texting purposes.

I've pirated music, games, movies, and tv shows for all my life. So, no, you won't win with me. Verizon nickels and dimes people to death, and they've been caught more than once in making fraudulent charges. They've also been found doing arbitrary "maintenance" on accounts that have led to irreversible changes of aged, grandfathered plans without much remorse as it forces the individual into a higher priced plan. With having been the victim of such a thing, I could care less about moral business practice with them.

 

[BCox]

What band width speed am I paying for? What is that listed and what is it? Part 2: How exactly does my tethered laptop pull more data than my smartphone on browser with 3 windows open at once? When both scenarios and pulling data through the same source.

If using wireless tether, then in theory the laptop is slower. USB tether not so much, but still limited in theory because of error checking processes.

So again my DX should in theory pull data harder than my laptop tethered to it. Especially when you configure your DX Browser to appear as desktop, or you go to sites without mobile versions.

OH and why is it BB has had tether with usb for years without any additional charges for it?

The difference is, when people tether, they don't just do the normal things they would have done with their phone in the first place, they do more. Don't tell me that you will sit and use your phone all day as a method of getting your information, if you have access to a computer with its own internet connection

furthermore, BB has had tethering for years because RIM has been around for so long, back when people didn't use "13gb" of data in a month...If they scrapped it now, I'm sure it would become a huge PR issue...

 

[BCox]

...So i mean, can we all agree that tethering is at the very least morally questionable. I mean, if everyone were to start tethering as their sole data source, the strain on the network would be noticeable, am i right?

Itd be like going to a buffet, and trying to take food home with you...

 

[Napalm]

Arrhghghghghghghghgh.

This is not about equal usage for equal tasks. It's about anticipated usage for a given medium.

It's why website providers can offer "unlimited" transfers, and airlines regularly overbook their planes and warranties for electronics range from months to years depending on their expected usage. It's about a company being able to estimate what they expect the average user to consume, and pricing accordingly.

People do not use their phones in the same manner that they use their desktops. The very nature of each device lends itself to different bandwidth consumption. A small screen, no keyboard, no mouse and lower processing power is going to limit the windows you can open, limit the things you will download (e.g. games, large apps, Windows updates), limit the sites you will visit. I might have 6 screens open with live game updates during football games on Sundays. I couldn't possibly keep all of that going on my phone or be able to switch fast enough. I download apps that are hundreds of megabytes. I download hundreds of megs of updates for my system. I download giant wallpapers to fill my 1080p display. Everyone does this all the time only they don't pay much attention to it.

ALSO, most people want an internet connection for their laptop/desktop, so Verizon can factor in the probability that most people have a home internet connection that will alleviate some of the data load. If tethering was a free-for-all, that assumption needs to be thrown out the window as people may well use it for their primary internet connection.

...So i mean, can we all agree that tethering is at the very least morally questionable. I mean, if everyone were to start tethering as their sole data source, the strain on the network would be noticeable, am i right?

Itd be like going to a buffet, and trying to take food home with you...

No, no its not. First of all prove and put a soild substantiation behind the "anticipated usage" That part right there followed a contract that says the work "unlimited" would never stand up in court if pressed. and as far as I know it hasn't yet. Hence part of the chages to the tiered system.

Part 2: If and when I tether my laptop to my phone (and I have done this with my BB in the past) it is when I am not near a connection or one is not available to me. IE, in a aircraft hangar in the hills of Missouri or on the side of the road outside of Mojave CA, or well let's just say remote places.

To that end, anywhere else, yes I have a connection available, so do most people if they stop and ask. Hell AT&T has started putting up additional HOT SPOTS for wifi that they sponsor. I suspect VZ has done similar.

So no, its not like I sit at home tethered to my DX with playing Xbox live. 1, there isn't enough bandwidth for that and 2. I don't know if its even possible.

And I don't advocate that, but if you are on a strapped budget and don't want to pay for home internet and are willing to live with the speed limitation. But you have UNLIMITED service on your new smart phone. Well then have at it.

Because until there is a defined "anticipation" then it becomes LIMITED. You can try to argue the semantics all you want, but you can get around basic logic and deductive reasoning.

Incidentally I don't Tether with my DX, and haven't the need to. And RIM always viewed it as a function of the device, it is a connectivity device and to be used as such. Incidentally no carrier has tried to change that with BB, ever wonder why? It would screw up their market and no business would use them.

Regardless, 13gb is a lot. Tethered or not. Hell I pulled 2.7gb last month and I never tether. I also have 2 phones to use. So now that I am down to 1, I wonder if I will top 5gb. bet I don't but we will see. nav pulls pretty hard sometimes.

 

[Napalm]

OH and lets not forget since we all seem to have DX's that its specs top out what a nominal laptop was 4-6 years ago. 1ghz processor, the ram all that is missing is the storage.

Hell the screen is HD resolution density for its size and btw its the largest marketed smartphone in the business. So don't tell me the anticipation is really the same. I see it starting to shift especially with the specs rivaling tablets and those ePC's people buy.

 

[Deleted User]

Bump.

Here you go, a recently published whitepaper from the FCC.

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2010/db1021/DOC-302324A1.pdf

Page 10.

And aircards, facilitating a full mobile computing experience, consume five times more data monthly than the iPhone.

Cisco also produced a chart in the same paper estimating usage by device type. Wireless broadband as a substitute for home broadband, AND wireless broadband as a compliment for home broadband, are far and away the highest projected usage, many times over. For those using it as a substitute for home broadband, it would appear that the usage is projected to be an order of magnitude or more higher than smartphones... and if Verizon offered carte blanche tethering, more people would be able to use it as a substitute rather than a compliment.

Note that these projections are based on the growth rate of smartphones being more than double the growth rate of broadband use as a substitute for OR a compliment to home broadband. Consequently, if the projected numbers are skewed, they are more likely to be skewed in favor of smartphones consuming more data than projected.

I figured it was intuitively obvious that tethering would be far and away a greater bandwidth consumer than mobile browsing but for those who needed it in black and white... there you go. Not only is current mobile data usage 5 times higher when using it from a computer than a smartphone, but the projections are that the gap is only going to grow.

 

[Deleted User]

You can try to argue the semantics all you want, but you can get around basic logic and deductive reasoning.

Bwahahaha. You are arguing semantics. I am not. Do you know what semantics are? I am not arguing the definition of limited and unlimited, which you are, which is arguing semantics. I am arguing from the logical position that Verizon is making an offering based on certain assumptions - and based on a contract that you sign. You are circumventing the assumptions and breaking the contract and then saying it's Verizon's fault for saying "unlimited."

They are not saying unlimited. They are saying unlimited within the terms of the contract.

 

[rehpyc]

LoL, of course someone who buys an air card is going to use more data than someone buying a smartphone. The people who buy the air cards are either those who choose it as a substitute for a wired home connection, or they are business people who are required to travel (there's other groups to be mentioned, but they are small in comparison). It would be the very nature of these types to use a lot more data than any one person on a smartphone would use. The restrictions put on these air cards are also pretty lenient in terms of what can be done.

GJ bumping a week old thread.

 

[Deleted User]

You're right. Smartphones are never owned by business people who are required to travel, and would never be used as a substitute for a wired home connection.

Silly me.

Go ahead and keep reaching for those excuses...

 

[rehpyc]

So we've gone from discussing the small minority of individuals who root their device and tether for free vs. a whole business class.. two distinct groups that'd use their tethering in entirely different manners? The original discussion was that of sometimes using a tethered connection in order to do some browsing that would have otherwise been done on the phone, simply because doing said browsing is more convenient on the computer; meaning, the use of the data whilst tethered would be the same as what could be done on the phone, not adding in things like using newsgroups, torrents, or gaming. We're now talking about those who buy air cards, which are expected to use much more data. The discussion here has become so skewed that it's not even worth discussing anymore. Then again, my line of argument was different from Napalm's, which you were (I'm guessing) moreso targeting.

 

[BCox]

So we've gone from discussing the small minority of individuals who root their device and tether for free vs. a whole business class.. two distinct groups that'd use their tethering in entirely different manners? The original discussion was that of sometimes using a tethered connection in order to do some browsing that would have otherwise been done on the phone, simply because doing said browsing is more convenient on the computer; meaning, the use of the data whilst tethered would be the same as what could be done on the phone, not adding in things like using newsgroups, torrents, or gaming. We're now talking about those who buy air cards, which are expected to use much more data. The discussion here has become so skewed that it's not even worth discussing anymore. Then again, my line of argument was different from Napalm's, which you were (I'm guessing) moreso targeting.

I think the point of the quote that Binary gave summed up his/my views on the argument pretty well:

"And aircards, facilitating a full mobile computing experience, consume five times more data monthly than the iPhone."

I interpret/read that as: people connecting to the internet via an air card used 5 times more data than consumers on a smartphone, due to the aircard facilitating a full computing experience. No duh, right?

Okay, so if someone were to use tethering as their only internet connection, what is the difference between the tethered smartphone and the aircard?

There wouldn't be one. Ergo, someone who tethers as their sole source of data (not buying home broadband when available, leeching off their "unlimited" cell data plan) stands to use 5x as much data as a consumer following the contract they signed and only using their data for their phone. According to that study or whatever.

Also, this: "They are saying unlimited within the terms of the contract."

 

[sund0wn]

this is such a silly argument.

verizon charges to tether. $30 to usb tether with 5GB of usage. $20 for hotspot with 2GB usage.

to circumvent those pay-to-use features is a violation of Verizon's ToS. Thus, it is stealing.

to say you think verizon charges too much for texting, etc, is just stupid. if you think their prices are too high, don't sign a contract with them. go use sprint. oh wait, their network sucks. that's why you pay a premium for verizon.

i dont go into the grocery store, and say, "i think they overcharge for their meat, so i'm just going to steal some milk and cheese."

now, i dont want to hear that it isnt the same thing. that's obvious. i'm merely illustrating a point.

it's stealing. pure and simple.

i am telling you, here and now, that "unlimited data" means unlimited to the phone, not unlimited thru the phone, to any device you want. that's just the way it is. i'm not asking anyone to stop doing what they're doing. i'm just stating what the policy is.

 

[rehpyc]

I'll let binary and BCox continue the argument here if Napalm wishes to chime in again, because his and my line of arguments were different, and their current discussion is mostly in line against his argument.

sund0wn, nobody has refuted that it's a breach of contract.. stop whining. At most, I've merely stated I'm not going to feel unethical by choosing to tether to my computer to do things I'd otherwise be able to do on my phone simply to have the convenience of a larger screen. If I truly cared to.. I could do just the same by using a bluetooth keyboard and utilizing a HDMI connection to my large TV. Cry cry. Hell, now we can use Hulu through our phone, and eventually Netflix will be available and probably have a cracked, working version for those who are rooted. Both will drive the data usage up far more than my oh-so-unethical tethering to the computer for basic browsing.

 

[BCox]

Only because this is more interesting than the organization behavior paper I'm supposed to be writing for last wednesday...

At most, I've merely stated I'm not going to feel unethical by choosing to tether to my computer to do things I'd otherwise be able to do on my phone simply to have the convenience of a larger screen.

I just wanted to say that this is exactly the issue (i think) that Binary was trying to point out in one of his previous posts (the one with the quote)

Again, you may be an exception, but I believe that the majority of people who tether to their computer simply because they want to use a larger screen, will end up using MUCH more data than they would use if they just used their phone.

And i'm not saying that its because someone is using a bigger screen, so more data is needed. I'm saying that, even browsing, a person will do MORE tasks on their computer than they would care to do on their phone. Just because I CAN sit all day on my phone and use the internet, etc, doesn't mean I (or anyone) would want to...Using that as a reason to mooch a data connection and not purchase either a tethering plan or a home internet connection is ridiculous.

 

[sund0wn]

I'll let binary and BCox continue the argument here if Napalm wishes to chime in again, because his and my line of arguments were different, and their current discussion is mostly in line against his argument.

sund0wn, nobody has refuted that it's a breach of contract.. stop whining. At most, I've merely stated I'm not going to feel unethical by choosing to tether to my computer to do things I'd otherwise be able to do on my phone simply to have the convenience of a larger screen. If I truly cared to.. I could do just the same by using a bluetooth keyboard and utilizing a HDMI connection to my large TV. Cry cry. Hell, now we can use Hulu through our phone, and eventually Netflix will be available and probably have a cracked, working version for those who are rooted. Both will drive the data usage up far more than my oh-so-unethical tethering to the computer for basic browsing.

where was i whining or crying? try acting like an adult. this has been a civil debate thus far. there is no need to be childish in place of a decent argument.

you can keep justifying it however you want. if you think it is ok to breach a contract, no matter the medium, we have come to an impasse, because our beliefs are fundamentally different.

and, i'm not trying to say those who tether are some kind of scourge of the mobile broadband world. i've openly admitted to using wireless tether a time or two. i'm just saying that each individual can justify how and why they tether til they're blue in the face, but the bottom line is that using a paid service for free is wrong. there are unlimited smartphone data plans, but there is no such thing as an unlimited tethering plan. there are, however, 2 and 5 GB tethering plans.

my argument was with the folks that were trying to say that circumventing the hotspot isn't stealing. i'm not saying you're a bad person, so dont take it so personally.

i hope i was a little more clear here. i'm not trying to demean anyone. to each their own. i dont want to come off as whining or crying, because i am doing neither. i work for verizon, and i dont really see it as something that hurts the company as much as it hurts the other customers. now, of course, i'm not saying the person who tethers once in a while to check email and surf a couple webpages is doing the damage. it's the people who are using 13GB a month (remember, the OP?) who are hurting the rest of us.