Dragonball Z[TV]

[VoidedSaint]

ok so myself and bouchigo dont get in trouble along with sezaro21, we shall have the dbz talk here

sezaro21
SSJ5 Vegeta doesnt exist, and if he did, unfortunately Goku would have already surpassed him, by about 3 levels
remember ssj3 goku
and vegeta was still a super saiyan?
thats how it will always be

 

[sezaro21]

What are you talking about. Goku was never stronger then Vegeta even from the very beginning. Goku always had to cheat to be stronger then Vegeta. From the very first time they fought Goku was not able to match Vegeta's power until he cheated and used the kaio ken technique. If Vegeta had used the kaio ken technique as well he would have crushed Goku. On planet Namek, Goku had been training at 100 times normal gravity and popping sensui beans like tick tacks in order to recover. We both know that each time he covered his strength doubled. Vegeta did not a chance to do that but if he did he would have destroyed Goku and Freeze without having to go Super sayain. Even Piccillo says it in Android Saga once Vegeta turns SSJ. He states that Vegeta is even more powerful then Goku. Vegeta has always been the best and strongest but the producers screwed up the story line. And SSJ5 Vegeta is real.

 

[VoidedSaint]

ssj5 vegeta is real in the db af saga, which is only a comic right now, hopefully it will be put into production as an anime series

and the kaio ken is not cheating, its a technique that he learned from king kai, just like the spirit bomb, you wouldnt say the spirit bomb is cheating would you? the kaio ken states it increases his power level and strength and speed for a short burst, but leaving him defenseless, and once its done it just drains his energy.
i have not heard of a mail ken technique, that must be a db af thing or something, but yes vegeta did become stronger than goku when he became a super saiyan because he trained at 500 times earths gravity, and goku didnt have sensu beans on yardrat, he trained with the natives where they taught him the instant transmission technique.

vegeta is my fav by far, ask bouchigo but unfortunately in the eyes of the producers vegeta will always be weaker.

and in the android saga Gohan was the strongest, because of all the untapped energy he had that was only released when he was pushed over the edge. that is why only gohan ascended to become ssj2 where as vegeta and trunks did it the wrong way, by increasing their strength but speed was horribly impacted.

 

[sezaro21]

I have corrected the my original post. The kaio ken technique is not cheating but what I meant was that it was the only way that Goku could even compete with Vegeta at his normal level. That is what I meant by cheating. If Goku wouldnt have used the kaio ken technique, he would have got crushed. Also, Gohan was not the strongest fighter in the Android Saga. He was the strongest fighter in the Cell Games Saga. Gohan never fought any of the original androids. Not trying to nit pick but just saying. The other thing is that Goku recieved much better training then Vegeta could. When in other world, he was constantly training with the Kais and with the other strongest fighters in the universe. He would push himself to the limit, recover, come back stronger and then repeat. Vegeta on the other hand had no other person to train with to push himself to the limit. Piccillo could no longer keep up with the powerlevels of the SSJ and Gohan became a big wuss in the Saiyerman saga. Vegeta even mentions how weak Gohan has gotten when they were fighting inside Babadi's ship. If Vegeta had been given the same training as Goku, he would have remained ahead of him like he always was. Vegeta has always been my favorate DBZ character and always will be.

 

[VoidedSaint]

I have corrected the my original post. The kaio ken technique is not cheating but what I meant was that it was the only way that Goku could even compete with Vegeta at his normal level. That is what I meant by cheating. If Goku wouldnt have used the kaio ken technique, he would have got crushed. Also, Gohan was not the strongest fighter in the Android Saga. He was the strongest fighter in the Cell Games Saga. Gohan never fought any of the original androids. Not trying to nit pick but just saying. The other thing is that Goku recieved much better training then Vegeta could. When in other world, he was constantly training with the Kais and with the other strongest fighters in the universe. He would push himself to the limit, recover, come back stronger and then repeat. Vegeta on the other had had no other person the train with to push himself to the limit. Piccillo could no longer keep up with the powerlevels of the SSJ and Gohan became a big wuss in the Saiyerman saga. Vegeta even mentions how weak Gohan has gotten when they are fighting inside Babadi's ship. If Vegeta had been given the same training as Goku, he would have remained ahead of him like he always was. Vegeta has always been my favorate DBZ character and always will be.

i can agree with you on some of these posts, and the cell games, no gohan was not the strongest then he has always been stronger than his father, his rage sets off the untapped energy that he always had, he always held back because he loved life and cherished it. even freiza knew that gohan was strong, but freiza was unable to send energy levels, (hence when goku was forming the spirit bomb freiza had no idea what he was doing til he saw it)
piccillo was never anyone to be concerned with, he was no where close to on par with the saiyans, and yes goku did train in other world with king kai, in the tournaments, only because he was a good pure spirit which he was allowed to retain his body, so he could continue to train. vegeta had hate and rage, and killed out of rage and never thought twice, that is why vegeta was not allowed to keep his body.
so in a way it was vegeta's fault for not being able to train.
goku was a great person and always tried to spare his enemies, so of course he is allowed to keep his body and train with king kai learning new techniques.
vegeta had an obsession with always wanting to surpass goku when, he was in fact defeated by goku, and yes the kaio ken was the only way goku could have one, vegeta was much to smart to allow goku to form a spirit bomb, but like the saiyans the longer they fight, they stronger they become, and whenever they recover from near death, their power and speed is increased, vegeta explained this when he wanted krillin to blast him so dende would heal him so he could finally become a super saiyan. and in such he was the only one out of the Z fighters to see freiza's blast and save gohan. Vegeta is also my favorite, i think he is badass, i just dont like how the producers (as you stated) portray him to be weak, its not right.
and yes gohan got soft in times of peace and he never continued his training. though vegeta did

 

[sezaro21]

Again I have to correct you on a few things that you posted. Piccillo was the strongest fighter at one time, not a very long time but he was. It was in the when he merged with Kami. Trunks says it to Krillin that he heard that if Piccillo merged with Kami, that he would be Vegeta realized this which is why he gets upset about how he finally reaches a new higher level only to be surpassed again by someone else. Gohan was not stronger then Goku or Vegeta until he learned to master his powers. Just because he had the potential doesnt automatically make the strongest. Even after the Grand elder unleashed Gohans full potential, he was still not stronger then Vegeta. Vegeta sensed this and even tells Gohan. Gohan also realized that as well. It wasnt until Gohan trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber that he became the strongest. Another thing to think about was when Goku faught against Maijin Vegeta they were equals. Now I know what you are going to say about them not being equal because Goku could have gone SSJ3. Goku had already assended to SSJ2 in other world and then assended to SSJ3 while there. Vegeta on the other had had only assended to Ultra SSJ. It's wasnt until he became Maijin Vegeta that he became a SSJ2. So if you thinkk about it, Goku had been a SSJ2 for a few years already and mastered that form and brought that form to it's max for him, yet Maijin Vegeta was only a SSJ2 for a short while and was equal to SSJ2 Goku, who had years of practice in that form. Now give Vegeta the same amount of years to practice and max out his SSJ2 form and he would have surpassed Goku yet again. The proof is there, it's just hard to picture because if the way the Magma was done.
Also, how did you get your avatar so big? Why is mine smaller then yours?

 

[VoidedSaint]

Again I have to correct you on a few things that you posted. Piccillo was the strongest fighter at one time, not a very long time but he was. It was in the when he merged with Kami. Trunks says it to Krillin that he heard that if Piccillo merged with Kami, that he would be Vegeta realized this which is why he gets upset about how he finally reaches a new higher level only to be surpassed again by someone else. Gohan was not stronger then Goku or Vegeta until he learned to master his powers. Just because he had the potential doesnt automatically make the strongest. Even after the Grand elder unleashed Gohans full potential, he was still not stronger then Vegeta. Vegeta sensed this and even tells Gohan. Gohan also realized that as well. It wasnt until Gohan trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber that he became the strongest. Another thing to think about was when Goku faught against Maijin Vegeta they were equals. Now I know what you are going to say about them not being equal because Goku could have gone SSJ3. Goku had already assended to SSJ2 in other world and then assended to SSJ3 while there. Vegeta on the other had had only assended to Ultra SSJ. It's wasnt until he became Maijin Vegeta that he became a SSJ2. So if you thinkk about it, Goku had been a SSJ2 for a few years already and mastered that form and brought that form to it's max for him, yet Maijin Vegeta was only a SSJ2 for a short while and was equal to SSJ2 Goku, who had years of practice in that form. Now give Vegeta the same amount of years to practice and max out his SSJ2 form and he would have surpassed Goku yet again. The proof is there, it's just hard to picture because if the way the Magma was done.
Also, how did you get your avatar so big? Why is mine smaller then yours?

when piccolo fuses with kami he does become stronger than them all, only when freiza was in his what 2nd form? once freiza transformed to his final form piccolo was unable to even come close to touching him, however vegeta was able to fight him, just not very effectively, and goku was the only one to actually hit him.

and yes gohan was the strongest, why do you think he and goku trained in the chamber for the years time, and when they emerged goku knew his son was vastly stronger than he was, gohan was the hybrid, and from everything i know the first hybrid is always the strongest.... never know why but thats how it is, trunks who was trained by gohan(this was when gohan never became a ssj2 and never trained by his father so he wasnt as strong) trained trunks, and when trunks went back into time, he was already a super saiyan and thus already stronger than his father. So as you can see Gohan was the strongest in the android series, he was unaware of his potential that he could have become a super saiyan easily, but he never had the confidence to know that he could. its why he defeated cell, he held back, but his friends were helping him, and when he saw them all get hurt, his rage set off the last remaining power he had and his Kamehameha defeated Cell once and for all.

and Majin Vegeta was not on par with ssj2 Goku even told Vegeta he was holding back, he knew Vegeta would destroy the planet if he knew goku was holding back all along. regardless though it was an amazing fight, which vegeta won, however, since it wasnt a natural ascension it wasnt the real ssj2, to me and this is my own personal opinion, the Majin Vegeta was just a cranked up ssj2 superior to an original ssj2, that is why he was able to defeat goku and still had enough energy to fight majin buu.

Vegeta in my personal opinion, should in a new series have the exact same power levels, and strength as goku considering vegeta is no longer a ruthless tyrant, he has come to enjoy his life on earth with his family, hopefully then they will allow vegeta to be on par with goku, and able to ascend as fast or before goku to help fight some evils, cause i get tired of seeing that they all rely on goku, i would like to see once where they have to rely on vegeta to win, and its vegeta who gets the energy from the group to save the earth.

though no one can come close to ssj4 Gogeta

 

[NYCHitman1]

USSJ Broly > all. I win.

 

[VoidedSaint]

lol ussj?? is that ultimate super saiyan or something?

we all know broly is the legendary super saiyan so his power seems unending, however, if fusion was permenant, then SSJ4 Gogeta would make broly his pet dog or something.
i do believe omega shenron would knock broly around like it wasnt nothing.

however broly at ssj4 would be well insane, and would probably take it it to ssj4 gogeta but im not sure. lol

 

[sezaro21]

I believe you have Nails and Kami confused. When Piccillo fused with Nails on planet Namek, he became the strongest fight and was even stronger then Freiza in his 2nd form. Now when Piccillo merged with Kami at the Lookout on Earth right before going to meet Cell for the first time, he again became the strongest fighter again, even stronger then any SSJ (Vegeta, Goku, and future Trunks) that would be that last time he would be the strongest fighter because once the SSJ hit the HTC for the day, they surpass Piccillo forever.
Now to Vegeta and Goku. When Goku asked Vegeta to merge with him so that they could fight mystic Maijin Buu, Vegeta said no as he was mad at Goku for lying to him. He then went on to explain to Goku that while Vegeta was in otherworld, he learned that Goku had assended to SSJ3. He was mad at Goku for holding back in their fight and not transforming into the SSJ3 form during their fight. Goku admits that he could have beaten Vegeta if he transformed into a SSJ3 and that he held back that form. That is what Goku meant bu holding back. Goku fought MSSJ2 Vegeta at his full power as a SSJ2 and was still weaker then Vegeta. The only way he would have won is if he transformed into a SSJ3 which he didnt. As SSJ2s, Vegeta was the stronger of the two.

I just want to say that I'm truly enjoying this conversation as it is really rare that I find someone who knows ALMOST as much as I do. LOL

 

[VoidedSaint]

i know almost every bit of information, sometimes i can be off, because i havent rewatched the episodes in a while

but your right i do remember he synced with nail during freiza, and refused to fuse with kami because of the differences they had
he did fuse with kami to fight cell, but it wasnt cells perfect form

but piccolo i dont think could have beaten a single one of the saiyans, he is a namekian not exactly what you would call a fierce fighter IMO
strong, but as strong as a saiyan? no
vegeta could have used the galick gun and taken out piccolo with ease
as well as goku using his kamehameha
piccolo's ultimate attack is the special beam cannon, but it has to charge up in order for it to be devestating.

i admitt that Majin Vegeta, at full strenght is stronger than Goku's SSJ2 at full strength, because babidi's magic is the reason vegeta achieved it, so you got to realize that vegeta may have had an extra push

but as we saw with SSJ2 Gohan when you first transform you are at your strongest, but you cannot control it, Goku explains this when he see's future trunks, and tells him about becoming a super saiyan, that after the first time you can control it, but during the first time you transform its raw rage.

the only thing i wonder
in DBGT when goku turns into the golden ape, when he controlled the ape, he then transformed to SSJ4
since its different writers it will be different, since with elder kai unlocked gohans potential, he was never going to become a super saiyan again but in DBGT he becomes a super saiyan once more
when vegeta first fought Goku he had his tail, became an ape, and controlled his thoughts and emotions, why did he not transform?????
question i have always wondered

 

[sezaro21]

Not really sure about Vegeta in DBGT. The series started getting dumb and I stopped watching about Halfway through. In DBGT, they messed up with Gohan becaoming a SSJ. After the the Elder Kai unleashed Gohan's full potential in DBZ, Gohan no longer needed to transform into a SSJ because he was even more powerful in his normal state. In DBGT, they messed that up. What I was disappointed with is Gohan. They made him so gay later on in the series. He should have been more powerful and they should have done more with him in his Mystic form. They spent so many episodes powering him up to his mystic form only to have him beat in like 2 episodes. He should have been kicking ass. If they gave Vegeta that power, he would have made Buu his bitch.

 

[VoidedSaint]

lol gohan wasnt too much a wimp when baby was controlling him, trunks looked gay with the scarf or whatever it was around his neck the whole episode, the only one in that series that was still somewhat a badass was in fact vegeta, though he rarely was in them because it was all based on goku being wished as a kid
and baby infected vegeta which in turn made him the strongest, it was like vegeta became ssj3 and was stomping goku in the ground, until goku became ssj4 and baby vegeta became the golden ape, then baby vegeta was still smacking goku around, it was until goku had the upper hand and blasted his tail off that baby lost control of vegetas body and was removed.

i wish to god they would do another series because it was just that intense i would welcome a new series with the original writer, and i know that only a full blooded saiyan can reach ssj4 with surprises me because i have seen images of trunks and gohan as ssj4, but they are all photoshopped, as such is ssj5 vegeta unless the DBAF is actually out there, and if it is, im going to find it and download it

 

[sezaro21]

I would totally love the DGAF series to be made. I would watch it. Hopefully they can do more with Vegeta and Gohan this time and not make them so bad because I'm just sick if Goku. You know what is weird. I expected more people to chime in here about this subject. I wish they would have had Mystic Gohan do more and fight more. I would have liked to have seen a SSJ3 ve Mystic gohan fight. that would have been an awesome fight.

 

[VoidedSaint]

it would have to be a majin vegeta fighting mystic gohan, though it would be one sided, if vegeta was able to go ssj3 then yeah it would happen. yeah mystic gohan didnt do much but beat the snot out of buu, until he absorbed gotenks, then gohan was on the run. that is until he got absorbed lol, and mystic gohan buu was without a doubt ruthless til he fought vegito, even in candy form hahaha

 

[sezaro21]

That would have been a great fight between Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Vegita or Mystic Gohan vs Gogetta. The SSJ3 music still gets me pumped up everytime I hear it. I think Vegeta was cool because he was a badass and wasnt soft and weak like the others. He would kill anyboy who got in his way. His music was cool as well. The cool thing with him was you knew he was a good guy with an evil side to him.
Also, I'm not sure I agree with it being difficult to to control oneself when transforming to a new level. Gohan was completely calm when he fought Cell and when when he bacame Mystic. Goku was also calm and in control when he fought Freiza. Vegeta was in control when he became a SSJ2 and even was in enough control to even fight off Babadi trying to control him.

 

[VoidedSaint]

thats what makes vegeta a badass, but mystic gohan vs gogeta? no contest gogeta would stomp him in the ground, gogeta is stronger than vegito, because its a pure fusion done by the dance, potora earings made a perfect fusion by a tool, so in such didnt give the full potential of the fighter, and if vegito was beating the snot out of buu after he absorbed mystic gohan, then there would be no hope for mystic gohan vs gogeta, he would be pummeled into the ground like ground pepper.

now
ssj3 gotenks may.... MAY give gogeta a challenge but i doubt it, its 2 half breed saiyan kids, who dont care about fighting, gogeta is 2 pure blood saiyans who are the strongest in the universe, gogeta is without a doubt the strongest being in existence, only when he transforms can he be unmatched.

 

[sezaro21]

How could you even say that a SSJ3 gotenks would give Gogeta a challenge. That would be a straight uop ass whupping for Gotenks. Gotenks was weaker then Mystic Gohan and had trouble beating super Buu. Gotenks would get straight up owned in that fight. What I meant in my last post was a fight between Mystic Gohan and Vegitto would be a good fight. I think if Gohan Really , REALLY tried, he could give Vegitto a challenge. I great fight would be if a SSJ4 Goten and a SSJ4 Trunks fused to form a SSJ4 Gotenks. Of course they would need to be older so that they could actually take the fight more seriously. They just played around to much with Buu. Could you image that fight. 2 SSJ4 half breeds fused together vs 2 SSJ4 pure breeds fused together. That would be a really tough call on who would win that.

 

[VoidedSaint]

no it wouldnt gogeta is a badass, there ssj4 gotenks wouldnt survive against ssj4 gogeta, its just not going to happen

what does gotenks bring to the table?
kamikazee ghost attack? pleassee

gogeta
big bang kamehameha
without a doubt the most devestating move, and he can make that attack so devestating it can wipe out galaxies/universes, if not more

ssj3 gotenks would give gogeta a small challenge just because of the sheer size difference, and the father son mentallity, gotenks would play around, and gogeta would be more inclined to not want to hurt him, but in the end a kick to the face would win, and you have to remember gotenks only went ssj3 by watching goku do it. so he mimicks moves, do you think he could harness the power that gogeta can harness? its possible.

i would like to see SSJ4 Vegetunks vs SSJ4 Goken

that would be good to see ^_^

 

[sezaro21]

i would like to see SSJ4 Vegetunks vs SSJ4 Goken

that would be good to see ^_^

That would be a really good fight. I got that beat though.
SSJ4 Vegefuturetrunks vs SSJ4 Gokan

 

[VoidedSaint]

that wouldnt be a fight, just because of the whole outline of everything, future trunks was only the cause of the android outbreak, which means goku and vegeta are already dead,
that and future trunks was trained by the gohan of the future who never reached ssj2 and didnt train with his father because goku died when the first androids appeared. so the specifics of that fight arent in favor of vegeta and future trunks, only because you would have to determine which gohan, and if thats the case its a dull fight.
since goku lived future trunks isnt needed.

and if they were able to go ssj4 at those times, goku still dies from the heart virus, from which there is no cure. so vegeta as ssj4 would decimate all the androids with his finger. and gohan would still be alone, and vegeta would be the ultimate being in the universe, unless they brough goku back with the dragonballs.

i just want to see ssj4 broly vs ssj4 gogeta. since broly is without a doubt stronger than goku and vegeta, but put together who knows the outcome.

i just wonder broly as the legendary supersaiyan could he have defeated omega shenron with ease?
but since you didnt watch gt
do you think he could rip super buu a new one without having to worry?
i wonder these little things

 

[sezaro21]

SSJ4 Broly would destroy SSJ4 Gogeta. There is no doubt in my mind about that fight and he would do it easily. Broly would have also destroyed Super Buu.
What about Super Buu vs Regenerated Ultimate Cell(after he was blown up)? who do you think would have one that fight?

 

[VoidedSaint]

i do believe buu would have won that fight, all he would have to do is either absorb him, or just turn him into chocolate and eat him lol

 

[Dark Jedi]

i do believe buu would have won that fight, all he would have to do is either absorb him, or just turn him into chocolate and eat him lol

But which buu are we talking about? If it was buu that absorbed Piccolo then maybe as Piccolo was a strategist. Remember Cell after blowing up learned Goku instant transmission and he was no dummy. Maybe over confident but still a very dangerous foe. It would be a good fight as just like buu cell could regenerate. So would chocolate move really work on cell?

 

[VoidedSaint]

well im referring to super buu after he absorbed gohan, that would refer to buu as super buu, cell was very dangerous yes, but cell was defeated by ssj2 gohan, and he fought goku at ssj3 and was holding his own. so yea i think super buu would destroy cell, be a good fight, but in the end buu would win