Battery problems, quirks and issues: Read first.

AlkiDweller · Jan 29, 2010

Keybeeetsss said:
Yeah but I'm talkin about real world scenarios; the 1st couple says I had my phone was the soul reason I found this forum, being my battery life was going down(actually shutting off|not just battery metering issues) within 3-4 hrs & after following the conditions steps its been much different since so there is no need for me to read a theory; I don't carer about those as most of u do; I go buy real world... Please Don't take offense to this Alki as I am just stating my point

It's not a theory. When the battery meter thinks the battery is low, it shuts the phone off. It's not because the battery is low. It's because the code that measures the battery tells the phone to shut down prematurely. When it thinks it's at 15% and the keyboard backlight stops working, it's really more like 60%. numus rewrote that code in Zefies kernel. Samsung rewrote that code in the recent update. Please, just read what numus has written in this thread.

Keybeeetsss · Jan 29, 2010

AlkiDweller said:
It's not a theory. When the battery meter thinks the battery is low, it shuts the phone off. It's not because the battery is low. It's because the code that measures the battery tells the phone to shut down prematurely. When it thinks it's at 15% and the keyboard backlight stops working, it's really more like 60%. numus rewrote that code in Zefies kernel. Samsung rewrote that code in the recent update. Please, just read what numus has written in this thread.

Ur really not reading what I said; I got this phone in Nov way b4 any updates came along & after conditioning withing the 1st 2days I had it, my battery life, or however u wanna put it, the phone actually stayed powered up period... So again, forget theory(@least for me) If thatz what u go by then fine, but the point is that what u told the other poster is not a fact otherwise, after me following the conditioning steps, I would have still been only getting 3-4hrs regardless of what a meter said... Do u not understand that?

AlkiDweller · Jan 29, 2010

Keybeeetsss said:
Ur really not reading what I said; I got this phone in Nov way b4 any updates came along & after conditioning withing the 1st 2days I had it, my battery life, or however u wanna put it, the phone actually stayed powered up period... So again, forget theory(@least for me) If thatz what u go by then fine, but the point is that what u told the other poster is not a fact otherwise, after me following the conditioning steps, I would have still been only getting 3-4hrs regardless of what a meter said... Do u not understand that?

I read and understood everything you said. You just don't understand why your phone does what it does. If you won't read what numus has written, then you just go on believing what you want but he's a lot smarter than both of us and he does have an explanation for why you see different results. Here, let me help you. Read this...

http://androidforums.com/samsung-mo...s-quirks-issues-read-first-16.html#post253320

Keybeeetsss · Jan 29, 2010

AlkiDweller said:
I read and understood everything you said. You just don't understand why your phone does what it does. If you won't read what numus has written, then you just go on believing what you want but he's a lot smarter than both of us and he does have an explanation for why you see different results. Here, let me help you. Read this...

http://androidforums.com/samsung-mo...s-quirks-issues-read-first-16.html#post253320

Dude are u that lovely dovey over these guys??? the part u don't get is that I DO NOT CARE to understand why the phone does|did what it did... All I & us other real world folk care about is that the phone works as needed & not run down in 3-4hrs as it did when I 1st bought it; I fixed it going off of conditioning only & not some Zeffie kernal; I think Numus was the 1 that started the whole CONDITION thing & I along with others are thankful for that; Smart or not, its a phone so I can give 2 hottnannys about som1 being smarter than me about that... I know what I know & I know what I did & if the poster that we started this whole convo about does the same then it WILL help; Not what u said about it being a waste of time which is for future neewbs comin here as well seeing contradicting things as such... I'm done dude... Thanks for the conversation nevertheless...

AlkiDweller · Jan 29, 2010

Keybeeetsss said:
Dude are that lovely dovey with these guys??? I DO NOT CARE to understand why the phone does|did what it did... All I & us other real world folk care about is that the phone works as needed & not run down in 3-4hrs as it did when I 1st bought it; I fixed it going off of conditioning only & not some Zeffie kernal; I think Numus was the 1 that started the whole CONDITION thing & I along with others are thankful for that; Smart or not, its a phone so I can give 2 hottnannys about som1 being smarter than me about that... I know what I know & I know what I did & if the poster that we started this whole convo about does the same then it WILL help; Not what u said about it being a waste of time which is for future neewbs comin here as well seeing contradicting things as such... I'm done dude... Thanks for the conversation nevertheless...

You couldn't do it, could you? You couldn't click that link. If you had you would have read what numus thinks about conditioning the battery. Instead you say he's a proponent of it.

numus · Jan 30, 2010

Alright time to clear the air.. If your battery doesn't last more then 3 hours total.. your battery or phone is defective.. Conditioning, new code, nothing will fix this.. Either the power supply isnt charging the battery correct.. or the battery cells are toast (when a battery cell goes bad it increases resistance in the cell.. the phone will always see the same voltage since this increase in resistance allows a decrease in capacity and still report the same adc values which are then converted into the voltage values)...

I broke my word on post in this thread again..

P.s. if anyone is interested
Attempting to get a copy of CL14 opensource code
he will be getting the opensource code for cl14 on February 4th.. then hopefully we can alter some of hte code and root/optimize the cl14 kernel and i am going to try to put integers of 5 reading values back into the phone...

Keybeeetsss · Jan 30, 2010

numus said:
Alright time to clear the air.. If your battery doesn't last more then 3 hours total.. your battery or phone is defective.. Conditioning, new code, nothing will fix this..

Well I guess my phone is a "Miracle Moment"...

numus · Jan 30, 2010

Keybeeetsss said:
Well I guess my phone is a "Miracle Moment"...

Or the cell was stuck in the relaxed state, and it took a couple forced voltages to get the cell structure to work again.. Lithium ion polymer batteries do not function the same way as Ni-Cd, NiMH or SLA... it actually isnt advised over the long run to deep cycle a lithium-ion polymer battery...

Keybeeetsss · Jan 30, 2010

numus said:
Or the cell was stuck in the relaxed state, and it took a couple forced voltages to get the cell structure to work again.. Lithium ion polymer batteries do not function the same way as Ni-Cd, NiMH or SLA... it actually isnt advised over the long run to deep cycle a lithium-ion polymer battery...

Numus, as I stated before, I appreciate ur dedication to all of this which is why my phone is now working the way I want it as far as the battery, but I for 1 don't care much as to why it does what it does; I only care that it does what it does; I'm a record producer; why did I say that? I care about why records sound the way they do being a bad mix & tracked poorly, bad room or mic technique, Crappy Pres or cheap Mics, too much tuning ruining the performance, etc etc. U probably don't care about all that; U just like to hear what u like correct?

numus · Jan 30, 2010

Keybeeetsss said:
Numus, as I stated before, I appreciate ur dedication to all of this which is why my phone is now working the way I want it as far as the battery, but I for 1 don't care much as to why it does what it does; I only care that it does what it does; I'm a record producer; why did I say that? I care about why records sound the way they do being a bad mix & tracked poorly, bad room or mic technique, Crappy Pres or cheap Mics, too much tuning ruining the performance, etc etc. U probably don't care about all that; U just like to hear what u like correct?

No not correct at all... i actually spent a couple hours a few days ago reading how high end audio recievers are implementing better acoustic detection circuitry in an attempt to better optimize speaker output for any given room based on the reverberation measures by a microphone placed at sitting position... i read almost everything i can .. i enjoy understanding and learning how simple and complex things around me work.. This is probably the primary reason i am in graduate school right now

Keybeeetsss · Jan 30, 2010

numus said:
No not correct at all... i actually spent a couple hours a few days ago reading how high end audio recievers are implementing better acoustic detection circuitry in an attempt to better optimize speaker output for any given room based on the reverberation measures by a microphone placed at sitting position... i read almost everything i can .. i enjoy understanding and learning how simple and complex things around me work.. This is probably the primary reason i am in graduate school right now

Congrats too u(& I don't mean any sarcasm by that @all)... However, reading about receivers has not much @all if anything to do with what I speak of...Music is what I do for a living & thatz probably why I'm here in L.A. up for 2 Grammys on tomorrow

I'll leave the phone work to u guys

Bigjohn · Jan 30, 2010

numus said:
Or the cell was stuck in the relaxed state, and it took a couple forced voltages to get the cell structure to work again.. Lithium ion polymer batteries do not function the same way as Ni-Cd, NiMH or SLA... it actually isnt advised over the long run to deep cycle a lithium-ion polymer battery...

Truth.
But
LION batteries do benefit from conditioning within the first 50 charge cycles or so.

And, after that, about once every 7-10 days a deep discharge.

Always do your deep discharge / charge in a cool place, by the way. Heat and LION batteries == fail.

John

Bigjohn · Jan 30, 2010

Keybeeetsss said:
Congrats too u(& I don't mean any sarcasm by that @all)... However, reading about receivers has not much @all if anything to do with what I speak of...Music is what I do for a living & thatz probably why I'm here in L.A. up for 2 Grammys on tomorrow

I'll leave the phone work to u guys

WORD!
Congrats to you.
If you win, wave your moment!!

John

Keybeeetsss · Jan 30, 2010

Bigjohn said:
WORD!
Congrats to you.
If you win, wave your moment!!

John

Thanks BigJohn!

numus · Jan 30, 2010

Bigjohn said:
Truth.
But
LION batteries do benefit from conditioning within the first 50 charge cycles or so.

And, after that, about once every 7-10 days a deep discharge.

Always do your deep discharge / charge in a cool place, by the way. Heat and LION batteries == fail.

John

Actually this isnt really tru.. you destroy the electrolytes in the bridge and cathode material if you fully discharge to often.. this is a key difference between lithium ion polymer cells and other chemical cells
http://www.copquest.com/battery_care.htm
1. Charge often. Don't try to fully discharge the battery packs frequently. This only adds strain. Several partial discharges (regular use) with frequent recharges are better for lithium-ion than one total discharge.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Frequent full discharges should be avoided when possible. Instead, charge the battery more often or use a larger battery. There is no concern of memory when applying unscheduled charges.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://powerelectronics.com/portable_power_management/battery_charger_ics/proper_care_extends-li-ion-battery-0425/index1.html[/FONT]

Use partial-discharge cycles Using only 20% or 30% of the battery capacity before recharging will extend cycle life considerably. As a general rule, 5 to 10 shallow discharge cycles are equal to one full discharge cycle. Although partial-discharge cycles can number in the thousands, keeping the battery in a fully charged state also shortens battery life. Full discharge cycles (down to 2.5 V or 3 V, depending on chemistry) should be avoided if possible.

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/helpdesk/?p=124
Deep discharges will strain your batteries, so try to charge them frequently

Like you said before Keybeeetsss.. I will leave audio stuff to you.. if you leave battery chemistry to me... Thank you

P.s. most of the things you read about "calibrating" a battery pack and other stuff relating to that is talking about the PCB control circuit for multiple cell packs... This does not apply to single cell packs used for small electronics... I just really didnt want to bring that up at all in this thread since it is hard to correct when teh general population think they know something

Any calibration we (or atleast i) talked about at the beginning was related to calibrating the ADC circuit to correctly output to the kernel a conversion factor to then relate into voltage.. but since the adc has a steadystate conversion factor and correction hard coded into the kernel there is no internal calibration beyond that...

acjohnson55 · Jan 31, 2010

Thanks for bringing the knowledge Numus. Some people, for some reason, don't want to understand it, but I found it very informative.

ramiss · Feb 1, 2010

acjohnson55 said:
Thanks for bringing the knowledge Numus. Some people, for some reason, don't want to understand it, but I found it very informative.

I agree. Although I respect everyone's opinion I think forums are meant for more in depth analysis. If you don't care to know how it works then you should have been content just reading the manual!

Oh...and by the way...I work for The Beatles Love and we did just win a Grammy!

faulkwood · Feb 1, 2010

FOOD FOR THOUGHT - I've had a Moment for 1 month now and had all the initial issues that people mention about the battery dropping to 80% after taking it off the wall charger for just a short time. Well recently my wall charger just died - the phone wouldn't even recognize when I plugged it in ALTHOUGH the USB charger still worked. I tried wiggling the AC wall charger around in the phone, the phone would make the noise like it was going to charge, the battery indicator would jump back and forth and yet it was not charging!

I plugged it into the computer using the USB and it started charging right away. After charging it one night on the USB CHARGER the phones battery has performed MUCH BETTER even with the background data still enabled. I saw only one other person post a similar comment. I've had my phone on the whole time and have used it like I have any other day and the charge is still on 70% after having it on 3/4 of the day already.

For some reason I believe the wall chargers are "chinky." Try charging your phone using the USB charger and see if it makes a difference. I will be trying one of those chargers off of eBay as well to replace the wall charger. NOW I love my phone!

Keybeeetsss · Feb 1, 2010

ramiss said:
I agree. Although I respect everyone's opinion I think forums are meant for more in depth analysis. If you don't care to know how it works then you should have been content just reading the manual!

Oh...and by the way...I work for The Beatles Love and we did just win a Grammy!

Congrats Ramiss; & the manual don't tell u how to condition the battery

numus · Feb 2, 2010

faulkwood said:
FOOD FOR THOUGHT - I've had a Moment for 1 month now and had all the initial issues that people mention about the battery dropping to 80% after taking it off the wall charger for just a short time. Well recently my wall charger just died - the phone wouldn't even recognize when I plugged it in ALTHOUGH the USB charger still worked. I tried wiggling the AC wall charger around in the phone, the phone would make the noise like it was going to charge, the battery indicator would jump back and forth and yet it was not charging!

I plugged it into the computer using the USB and it started charging right away. After charging it one night on the USB CHARGER the phones battery has performed MUCH BETTER even with the background data still enabled. I saw only one other person post a similar comment. I've had my phone on the whole time and have used it like I have any other day and the charge is still on 70% after having it on 3/4 of the day already.

For some reason I believe the wall chargers are "chinky." Try charging your phone using the USB charger and see if it makes a difference. I will be trying one of those chargers off of eBay as well to replace the wall charger. NOW I love my phone!

Wall chargers usually charge at 700 mA while the USB port is only 500 mA.. there is some school of thought that the slower trickle charger gives you a more true charger due to no rapid increase in deltaT in short periods of time raising R which then in respect raises V... The stock code has issues in it with the ramping profile for regulating charge voltages during the cycle, since it is utilizing adc values that are not just wrong place markers, but incorrect in general... this has all been documented and the newer codes (mine and CL14) should contain the correct adc correlation values, along with a progressive step program... Since we dont have hte cl14 source (yet) we are unable to determine if the adc values are really correct or just a minor alteration in the detector calibration variable (this is all hardcoded).. there is no variable difference in the battery pack itself since it is single cell and doesn't require the use of a PCB fuel gate...

PSYB0RG · Feb 2, 2010

Numus, if at first u dont succeed, try again. Ex: THAT DOES NOT WORK....THAT DOES NOT WORK...THAT DOES NOT WORK.....THAT DOES NOT WORK...lol

Few questions tho....

Since you will have the actual code, what do you ESTIMATE the ETA will be for doing ur due to it? Fairly quickly or Possibly longer? Im thinking since you already done all the hard work and didnt have anything to work with from scratch (other than Behold), and if everything is pretty much similar or you were extremely close, then it should be fairly quick.

And once the code is required, what do you think will be the ETA time for ALL of you guys to do ur DUE to it? (ur updated battery coding, zeffie updated tweets, other guys parts) To kinda get a POSSIBLE time frame when CL14.2 is out?

Also, what other POSSIBLE benefits will there be thats different from Zeffie's latest rom?

Thanks

PS. I might really need your help to get me rooted, Im having a weird problem, I will pm you later.

numus · Feb 2, 2010

PSYB0RG said:
Numus, if at first u dont succeed, try again. Ex: THAT DOES NOT WORK....THAT DOES NOT WORK...THAT DOES NOT WORK.....THAT DOES NOT WORK...lol

Few questions tho....

Since you will have the actual code, what do you ESTIMATE the ETA will be for doing ur due to it? Fairly quickly or Possibly longer? Im thinking since you already done all the hard work and didnt have anything to work with from scratch (other than Behold), and if everything is pretty much similar or you were extremely close, then it should be fairly quick.

And once the code is required, what do you think will be the ETA time for ALL of you guys to do ur DUE to it? (ur updated battery coding, zeffie updated tweets, other guys parts) To kinda get a POSSIBLE time frame when CL14.2 is out?

Also, what other POSSIBLE benefits will there be thats different from Zeffie's latest rom?

Thanks

PS. I might really need your help to get me rooted, Im having a weird problem, I will pm you later.

It will be ze10...
I don't have the source yet for the kernel, neither does zefie.. we should be getting it tomorrow (well tomorrow for korea i guess is the 4th.. but the 4th ist he release date) per a confirmation with samsung korea (we are not sure if t he project manager for the moment commited suicide in korea but i dont think so.... zefie does)... Battery code will probably just injected 5th integers into the code if possible to get a semi better relation to actual percent.. but wont know until i get to dig into it...
Can't give you an ETA from zefie until we know what we are dealing with but shouldn't be more then a coupel days to get a stable build.. he is going to try to inject as much as he can into the kernel, but going to hold back to see if the native fixes are actually better... so we shall see

PSYB0RG · Feb 2, 2010

10-4 Numus, Thanks

AllLacqueredUp · Feb 4, 2010

OK so I've been reading a lot of the tips for extending battery life but I'm still at a loss.

I just got my Moment last week and it came with CL14 update installed but my battery is down to 15% in less than 6 hours. I stopped the GPS & Bluetooth but I use Wi-Fi while working from home because my reception is crap (I'm in like the one block of my neighborhood that gets "fair" Sprint reception). I installed Advanced Task Killer but some things like Messaging, Voice Control & Moxier pop up over and over anyway. I've been monitoring my battery usage with Spare Parts and even though I was at 100% when I pulled it off the USB charger, I was down to 15% in 5-ish hours.

Thoughts? Advice? The only apps I actively use during the day are Tweetcaster and Gmail and I need those on.

sh517 · Feb 4, 2010

AllLacqueredUp said:
OK so I've been reading a lot of the tips fkrkror extending battery life but I'm still at a loss.

I just got my Moment last week and it came with CL14 update installed but my battery is down to 15% in less than 6 hours. I stopped the GPS & Bluetooth but I use Wi-Fi while working from home because my reception is crap (I'm in like the one block of my neighborhood that gets "fair" Sprint reception). I installed Advanced Task Killer but some things like Messaging, Voice Control & Moxier pop up over and over anyway. I've been monitoring my battery usage with Spare Parts and even though I was at 100% when I pulled it off the USB charger, I was down to 15% in 5-ish hours.

Thoughts? Advice? The only apps I actively use during the day are Tweetcaster and Gmail and I need those on.

Allow the battery to nearly die. When u get to 15% don't put it on the charger. You actually have a long time for the phone to be up and running at 15%. This is basically condtioning the battry. I still have the stock phone sans update and I've never had a problem with the battery dying quickly.

Battery problems, quirks and issues: Read first.

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