Galaxy Nexus browser vs iPhone 4s' Safari

s.m.knipe · Jan 23, 2012

Thai said:
But, sm.knipe, you miss the point...Maven proves that iOS browser way of doing things is NOT because of some technicality limitation, but because that is how Apple feel is the right speed for their customers. It is like most German sports cars limit their top speed to 150 mph...most can get above this speed without harm...but Germans chose to put this limit (which is defeatable with software). It is just a matter of taste that Apple does this. Thus, it is NOT a "trick" to smooth out the browser...it is by CHOICE. In other words, if Apple chooses to make a quick scrolling browser, then i am sure that it can do so smoothly without difficulty since there is nothing technically limiting them. (Maven browser proves that this CAN be done on iOS. But apparently, Apple engineers like their method better.)

Doesn't that kind of miss the point that the Germans are still deceiving people about the car's performance (aka a "trick")? -This governing of the experience is only part of the issue at play with the browser issue. This "trick" Safari uses also serves a latent purpose of hiding something they think people do not want- namely seeing the unfinished tiles. This would be like the German sports cars being throttled, and it also just happens to be the case that they shake really bad, or make a loud noise when operated above 150 MPH, so the manufacturers govern the top speed. Likewise, Apple is governing the way the browser populates the page because of the "unpleasant" experience that may result. My point is that you can call it whatever you want, whether sought after or intentional or not, the hiding of capabilities is still a deception (especially if chosen to be hidden). And the worse part is that yes, the deception is a choice, but (until the Maven browser) it was not one YOU could make, it was made for you.

aimetti · Jan 23, 2012

as an iphone user (every variation since 3g) and now a galaxy nexus owner, i can safely say there is no comparison at all. Any iphone fanboy (me being one) is completely wrong if they say browsing on an iphone trumps a gnex.

sorry , aint happening.

s.m.knipe · Jan 23, 2012

Thai said:
So, your ASSUMPTION (without any facts to back it) that Apple's limited browser scrolling to finger motion is because Apple wants to hide the lag is not equally (or more so) flawed????? Really?! Is your bias this blinding?!

Do you have any PROOF that when scrolling quicker, Safari goes crazy and lag?????? Yet, you (and a few others) jumped to this conclusion blindly.

Yet, when i show you a different browser on iOS that does not lag when scroll quickly, you dismiss it as being "severely flawed"!!

Come on, we're all grown men with education...have you read what you wrote and consider the logic behind it??!!

That wasn't his point. I'm pretty sure his point was that Android has been shown to browse sufficiently smooth, and so the argument built on the assumption that it does not is what is flawed

Thai · Jan 23, 2012

s.m.knipe said:
This "trick" Safari uses also serves a latent purpose of hiding something they think people do not want- namely seeing the unfinished tiles.

My point is that you can call it whatever you want, whether sought after or intentional or not, the hiding of capabilities is still a deception (especially if chosen to be hidden). And the worse part is that yes, the deception is a choice, but (until the Maven browser) it was not one YOU could make, it was made for you.

Deception? Come on, are you exaggerating a little here? First of, i was talking about scrolling speed with one swipe of finger...not about the unfinished tiles etc..

Yeah, so, Safari chooses to hide the unfinished tiles until they are loaded completely. Again, this is about user interface...and Apple is big into that. So what?! Are they/Apple hiding important information after a page is uploaded completely????? No. It is just their way of doing things. Man, you guys are bias!

Does Android give you guys a choice to slow down the scrolling speed OR to eliminate the lag?? No. Is that deception also? Apparently, NO CHOICE = DECEPTION.

I understand your point, but you're blowing up something that is nothing into a major conspiracy theory!

s.m.knipe said:
That wasn't his point. I'm pretty sure his point was that Android has been shown to browse sufficiently smooth, and so the argument built on the assumption that it does not is what is flawed

But my point still stands...where do you guys get the proof/fact that Safari is hiding the lag by going with the slower scroll?

s.m.knipe · Jan 23, 2012

Thai said:
Deception? Come on, are you exaggerating a little here? First of, i was talking about scrolling speed with one swipe of finger...not about the unfinished tiles etc..

Yeah, so, Safari chooses to hide the unfinished tiles until they are loaded completely. Again, this is about user interface...and Apple is big into that. So what?! Are they/Apple hiding important information after a page is uploaded completely????? No. It is just their way of doing things. Man, you guys are bias!

Does Android give you guys a choice to slow down the scrolling speed OR to eliminate the lag?? No. Is that deception also? Apparently, NO CHOICE = DECEPTION.

The scrolling with one finger issue is the other side of the unfinished tile coin- same issue, different viewpoint.

And it isn't necessarily biased, I am not saying Apple is wrong for doing so, or people are wrong for wanting it, I am saying it is a different process, that meets the definition of the label "trick," and is not for everyone.

No, that is not deception because there is not another way available for Android to use right now, that it is choosing (and forcing us into the same choice) between. The point of those Google Engineer comments is that for right now, Android is at its peak for "smoothness," and so is operating as designed. New improvements may open up down the road (and there seems to be hope from some of the upcoming SoC's), but for right now (Honeycomb/ICS) we have reached what we can do.

Thai said:
I understand your point, but you're blowing up something that is nothing into a major conspiracy theory!

I agree, this has become very cluttered. My point originally was that I don't think you mean to argue the choice of the word "trick" because it is what is actually at foot here.

Thai said:
But my point still stands...where do you guys get the proof/fact that Safari is hiding the lag by going with the slower scroll?

Isn't that what it does? According to the engineers (both the G+ link I posted earlier and some fo Dan Morrill's follow-ups) it is a framework issue bottle-necked by the chip architecture and available coding to work within that bottle-neck. Apple's (latest) approach seems to be an as-needed (aka scrolling) approach for drawing those tiles, whereas Android's framework/approach is to draw the tiles as received. Both have limitations (in iOS 5 you can only scroll what has been drawn, and in Android you see unfinished tiles- like you used to in iOS), but both deal with the bottleneck issue. But to answer your questioning of our assumptions, I think you've said it well enough:

Yeah, so, Safari chooses to hide the unfinished tiles until they are loaded completely. Again, this is about user interface...and Apple is big into that.

It is an assumption, but a generally accepted one given the recent trend (akin to "night is dark" or "the sun will rise tomorrow morning" or "fanboys always defend" - they are patterns we have observed and have yet to fail).

Thai · Jan 23, 2012

Actually, to some, slower scrolling is wanted. Android can surely do this...yet gives no choice. Trick then? As noted above, I don't like the fast scrolling of android. Do I have a choice? Deception then?

s.m.knipe · Jan 23, 2012

Thai said:
Actually, to some, slower scrolling is wanted. Android can surely do this...yet gives no choice. Trick then? As noted above, I don't like the fast scrolling of android. Do I have a choice? Deception then?

No, can't you just move your finger slower?

Thai · Jan 23, 2012

s.m.knipe said:
No, can't you just move your finger slower?

It is not as controlled on a long thread or a long page...sometimes going too fast on something that is longer than what is currently on the screen. Apple is too slow. I wish that you guys have Maven to see what i am talking about! (And no, i am not Maven developer!

)

mysterioustko · Jan 23, 2012

s.m.knipe said:
That wasn't his point. I'm pretty sure his point was that Android has been shown to browse sufficiently smooth, and so the argument built on the assumption that it does not is what is flawed

Bingo.

Thai said:
So, your ASSUMPTION (without any facts to back it) that Apple's limited browser scrolling to finger motion is because Apple wants to hide the lag is not equally (or more so) flawed????? Really?! Is your bias this blinding?!

Do you have any PROOF that when scrolling quicker, Safari goes crazy and lag?????? Yet, you (and a few others) jumped to this conclusion blindly.

Yet, when i show you a different browser on iOS that does not lag when scroll quickly, you dismiss it as being "severely flawed"!!

Come on, we're all grown men with education...have you read what you wrote and consider the logic behind it??!!

You completely missed the point and obviously only read what you wanted to read. What I said was that on gingerbread browsers like firefox ran much smoother than the stock gingerbread browser. They are both existing in the same OS yet they are coded differently. iOS is no different with Maven. They both exist in the same OS but they are not coded the same way therefore they will not function the same either. Don't try to add anything else to what I said, as I stated exactly what I wanted to state. You talked as though both Maven and safari are coded the same because they are both on iOS when that is simply not the case. A poorly coded browser could lag on iOS also. Maven obviously is coded well and enables it to enjoy smooth unrestricted scrolling without lag (according to you). Obviously it has something coded in it that safari does not.

OfTheDamned · Jan 23, 2012

The last time I checked, this thread was a comparison of the stock browsers on the Galaxy Nexus and the iPhone 4S. Being a comparison there will obviously be different opinions on how things perform based on personal opinion and personal experience. There is nothing wrong with someone having a difference of opinion, but there can be a problem with how that opinion is offered.

Let's keep the thread on topic and let's keep the replies polite. I had to delete several posts where the authors were crossing the line between what is a polite reply and what is rude or instigating behavior.

If the topic cannot be discussed in a rational way then the thread will need to be closed.

sperho · Jan 24, 2012

I generally like the Android browser better, but the one feature of iOS that I LOVE is the ability to tap the menu bar and have the screen jump all the way to the top. This is almost a universal feature throughout iOS. Email, web browser, RSS readers, etc. Of course with the big screen of the Nexus, tapping the notification bar would be cumbersome. Thank goodness for the quick flick feature of Android...

deslock · Jan 24, 2012

Some comments about what's mentioned (and not mentioned, that I noticed) in that video:

The voice-over states that the 4s loads pages slightly slower, but the video shows it loading several pages slightly quicker.
The 4s is smoother while ICS tends to stutter (not mentioned).
The 4s browser is more responsive to finger input than ICS (not mentioned, but I've observed this and it's shown in other videos).
The 4s take more flicks on a long page, but it also accelerates its scrolling with subsequent swipes (shown but not mentioned). This is still an ICS advantage, but it's a bit overstated in the voice-over.
This is subjective, but fonts are nicer on the 4s.
Text is slightly jagged on the VGN (due to pentile). It's subtle and not nearly as noticeable as on the RAZR, but it's still there (not an ICS vs iOS thing, but noteworthy since the video was GN vs iPhone4).
The Nexus screen is grainy from low to medium brightness, which is sometimes distracting when reading text on webpages (not an ICS vs iOS thing, but noteworthy since the video was GN vs iPhone4).
The 4s anti-aliases more quickly (not mentioned).
The 4s often resizes ala pinch-zoom more quickly (not mentioned).
The 4s rotates the screen more quickly (not mentioned).
The 4s has the ability to return to the top of the screen with one tap (not mentioned in the video, but mentioned in this thread).
The 4s views videos and documents seamlessly without having to save them externally, which can be a bit more cumbersome with ICS (not mentioned in that video).
The 4s has an integrated spell-checker, which is not needed for reading with a browser but is useful when posting/blogging/etc. You can use an external editor with ICS, but that's a bit clunky (not mentioned).

It's a long video and I was distracted at a couple points while watching it, so my bad if he may have mentioned any of that.

Anyway, some of those things are less important than others and overall I prefer browsing with the VGN, but from what I watched it's not as one-sided as that video makes it out to be.

EDIT: Note that I've only had the VGN for 4 days, so if there are solutions for some of those things feel free to post them. For instance, I installed a widget to get rotation lock, which is handy for browsing in bed.

Thai · Jan 24, 2012

mysterioustko said:
A poorly coded browser could lag on iOS also. Maven obviously is coded well and enables it to enjoy smooth unrestricted scrolling without lag (according to you). Obviously it has something coded in it that safari does not.

So, you think that DJ Kang (small time developer of Maven) knows iOS and thus able to code better for the browser than the iOS engineers at Apple who made the iOS from scratch and then develop a browser (Safari) solely for it?

So, Safari Apple engineers don't know how to code it to scroll quickly & smoothly...yet some small time developer has found the holy grail?? That Apple engineers use the "short" scrolling effect on Safari as a way to hide some horrific lagging defect in Safari??

I must admit that i like Maven better than Safari at certain things, but Safari interface is minimalistic, which again is part of Apple's thinking and not really Apple's way of hiding stuff from users.

Before moderators delete this, i want to know the answer. Seriously, this post is not meant to be offensive...and i have cleaned it up as best i can to convey the question(s).

Thai · Jan 24, 2012

sperho said:
but the one feature of iOS that I LOVE is the ability to tap the menu bar and have the screen jump all the way to the top.

Thanks. I forgot about this hidden feature.

Ok, for those above who believe that iOS/Safari is hiding the lag by doing the short scroll, why don't you guys scroll to the bottom of a long page with an Iphone 4S...tap the very top menu (pull down menu area) section...and see Safari zoom all the way to the top without a single ounce of lag!! Hell, it is far far faster than Android/ICS...yet no lag, no stuttering, nada...just pure smoothness all the way to the top.

So, is Safari hiding something with its short scroll...or, is it that I was right all along in this thread and that the short scroll to finger swipe is PURELY an Appler user interface preference setting that Apple engineers chose, NOT a conspiracy theory as a few on here suggested? :rolleyes:

Thai · Jan 24, 2012

Heck, i even made a video this morning showing the uber fast scrolling that Safari is capable of: Scrolling with Safari on iPhone 4S - YouTube

Lag?? I don't see any with my eyes.

mysterioustko · Jan 24, 2012

deslock said:
The voice-over states that the 4s loads pages slightly slower, but the video shows it loading several pages slightly quicker.

The 4s is smoother while ICS tends to stutter (not mentioned).

The 4s browser is more responsive to finger input than ICS (not mentioned, but I've observed this and it's shown in other videos).

The 4s take more flicks on a long page, but it also accelerates its scrolling with subsequent swipes (shown but not mentioned). This is still an ICS advantage, but it's a bit overstated in the voice-over.

This is subjective, but fonts are nicer on the 4s.

Text is slightly jagged on the VGN (due to pentile). It's subtle and not nearly as noticeable as on the RAZR, but it's still there (not an ICS vs iOS thing, but noteworthy since the video was GN vs iPhone4).

The Nexus screen is grainy from low to medium brightness, which is sometimes distracting when reading text on webpages (not an ICS vs iOS thing, but noteworthy since the video was GN vs iPhone4).

The 4s anti-aliases more quickly (not mentioned).

The 4s often resizes ala pinch-zoom more quickly (not mentioned).

The 4s rotates the screen more quickly (not mentioned).

The 4s has the ability to return to the top of the screen with one tap (not mentioned in the video, but mentioned in this thread).

The 4s views videos and documents seamlessly without having to save them externally, which can be a bit more cumbersome with ICS (not mentioned in that video).

The 4s has an integrated spell-checker, which is not needed for reading with a browser but is useful when posting/blogging/etc. You can use an external editor with ICS, but that's a bit clunky (not mentioned).

1. This wasn't a speed test video. There are enough of those out that I didn't feel the need to compare them, hence why most times I didn't bother to time the taps the same. I can tell you that side by side the GNex loads pages faster than the 4S almost every time.
2. I didn't experience any stuttering nor do I in my everyday use.
3. It isn't any more responsive or any less responsive. I'd say I experienced them to be equal.
4. Irrelevant. Bottom line is regardless if it speeds up or not it still takes 7-8 times as many swipes in some cases to get to the bottom of a page. Where most pages I can get to the bottom in one swipe on the GNex, it takes 6 or more swipes on the 4S.
5. Definitely your opinion. I don't think one looks better than the other. Not to mention on many sites the fonts are chosen for you by the site, so many times that is irrelevant.
6. Text IS NOT jagged on the Gnex at all. The Razr has no bearing here. You CANNOT see any screen dooring or jagged text on the GNex. The screen is too high of a resolution for that to matter. That just sounds like some regurgitated misnformation you read somewhere.
7. My screen is just fine. But this has NOTHING to do with a browser comparison. This isn't a Gnex vs Iphone video...it was a browser comparison...let's leave it at what it was.
8. You think so? Prove it. I see no difference. I think you're really reaching now.
9. It depends on how quickly you pinch.....you're REALLY reaching now.
10. What does that have to do with the browser comparison? Stay on topic. If you want to do a Gnex vs. Iphone post, I suggest you make one. That isn't what this is.
11. I thought I did mention it when talking about scrolling. I did a bunch of takes so if I didn't do it in this one that's unfortunate.
12. That's because it can't download anything (also not mentioned in the video). So unfortunately all you're going to do is look at it..you won't be downloading it and emailing it, you won't be editing it, etc..
13. okay

breadnatty08 · Jan 24, 2012

Mysterious, what a great video. I'm glad that you remained "non fanboy" in making it and said the Safari browser, while having some disadvantages, is still a great mobile browser. I have very little experience with iOS (never wanted to), but I think the biggest takeaway is look how much friggin bigger the Nexus screen is!
Also, thanks for pointing out the quick controls! I know I've seen them in some ICS demo videos but never turned them on (don't know if Google stole this from Cyanogen, but I'm glad they got it in there now).

Bnice · Jan 24, 2012

Thai said:
Heck, i even made a video this morning showing the uber fast scrolling that Safari is capable of: Scrolling with Safari on iPhone 4S - YouTube

Lag?? I don't see any with my eyes.

This is some extreme scrolling if you ask me just to prove a point. It still took you like three plus times just get to the bottom of a 3.5 screen. Now go back and look how mysterioustko was scrolling because it is obvious you missed completely what he was demonstrating.

Thai · Jan 24, 2012

Bnice said:
This is some extreme scrolling if you ask me just to prove a point. It still took you like three plus times just get to the bottom of a 3.5 screen. Now go back and look how mysterioustko was scrolling because it is obvious you missed completely what he was demonstrating.

I swear that I wrote that I thought Safari scrolled too slow...but it was not done to hide lag. Please re-read what I wrote. Thx

mysterioustko · Jan 24, 2012

dreadnatty08 said:
Mysterious, what a great video. I'm glad that you remained "non fanboy" in making it and said the Safari browser, while having some disadvantages, is still a great mobile browser. I have very little experience with iOS (never wanted to), but I think the biggest takeaway is look how much friggin bigger the Nexus screen is!
Also, thanks for pointing out the quick controls! I know I've seen them in some ICS demo videos but never turned them on (don't know if Google stole this from Cyanogen, but I'm glad they got it in there now).

Thanks. You are right, the difference in screen real estate is quite ostensible. The thing is it isn't even just in the amount of content displayed on the screen it's also how much more readable the content is on the GNex. The 4S tends to have you a having to really focus hard to read what's on the screen (that or zoom in quite close). I don't like having to squint when I'm trying to read.

Bnice said:
This is some extreme scrolling if you ask me just to prove a point. It still took you like three plus times just get to the bottom of a 3.5 screen. Now go back and look how mysterioustko was scrolling because it is obvious you missed completely what he was demonstrating.

Yeah that was a pretty extreme amount of effort to be putting into scrolling. I don't think any normal person is going to be doing that in their normal day to day browsing. While it takes all that to "scroll quickly" on the 4S the Gnex takes one simple swipe to get the same result. That's a night and day difference. All in all I really don't even see the purpose of that video either. Glad to see I'm not the only one that found that to be a bit extreme.

Rdjr74 · Jan 24, 2012

This thread is exhausting. How bout you (Thai) agree to disagree and move back on point. As the Moderator stated just 11 posts ago.

deslock · Jan 24, 2012

mysterioustko said:
1. This wasn't a speed test video. There are enough of those out that I didn't feel the need to compare them, hence why most times I didn't bother to time the taps the same. I can tell you that side by side the GNex loads pages faster than the 4S almost every time.
2. I didn't experience any stuttering nor do I in my everyday use.
3. It isn't any more responsive or any less responsive. I'd say I experienced them to be equal.
4. Irrelevant. Bottom line is regardless if it speeds up or not it still takes 7-8 times as many swipes in some cases to get to the bottom of a page. Where most pages I can get to the bottom in one swipe on the GNex, it takes 6 or more swipes on the 4S.
5. Definitely your opinion. I don't think one looks better than the other. Not to mention on many sites the fonts are chosen for you by the site, so many times that is irrelevant.
6. Text IS NOT jagged on the Gnex at all. The Razr has no bearing here. You CANNOT see any screen dooring or jagged text on the GNex. The screen is too high of a resolution for that to matter. That just sounds like some regurgitated misnformation you read somewhere.
7. My screen is just fine. But this has NOTHING to do with a browser comparison. This isn't a Gnex vs Iphone video...it was a browser comparison...let's leave it at what it was.
8. You think so? Prove it. I see no difference. I think you're really reaching now.
9. It depends on how quickly you pinch.....you're REALLY reaching now.
10. What does that have to do with the browser comparison? Stay on topic. If you want to do a Gnex vs. Iphone post, I suggest you make one. That isn't what this is.
11. I thought I did mention it when talking about scrolling. I did a bunch of takes so if I didn't do it in this one that's unfortunate.
12. That's because it can't download anything (also not mentioned in the video). So unfortunately all you're going to do is look at it..you won't be downloading it and emailing it, you won't be editing it, etc..
13. okay

Fair enough, but speed was mentioned in the video, and the voice-over didn't seem to match what was shown. My experience so far is that both load at about as quickly.
I've only had my VGN since last Friday, but since then the stuttering -though minor- has been pretty consistent. I've tried a few browsers and it happens on all of them. Not a deal breaker as it's plenty useable, but it's noticeable compared to the iPhone4 and 4s.
Same as #2 (it happens especially when I move stuff back and forth).
Again, this as an ICS advantage but you're overstating it a bit.
Yep.
I see the jagged text. But at this DPI, it doesn't detract from the experience as much as the RAZR's screen (which I brought up only for purposes of comparison).
It's relevant to a GN vs iPhone4 browser test because the flat color graininess when brightness is low-to-medium is sometimes annoying, especially when I'm reading text. Again, this isn't an iOS vs Android issue but a characteristic of the GN screen.
When I use them side-by-side and pinch-zoom, my old iPhone4 (now my wife's) brings up smooth text a bit more quickly. I have no stake in whether you believe me, nor do I need to prove anything.
See #8 (it resizes more quickly just like it antialiases text more quickly).
When I'm browsing in bed and adjust how I'm reading, sometimes I switch from portrait to landscape. IMO, it's as relevant to the browsing experience of both devices as some of your comments in that video.
Again, it's possible I missed it.
My point was that the iPhone appears to have support for viewing more types of files within the browser without needing to download them. This is squarely in the "not a big deal" column, but a couple videos I tried watching had to be downloaded to the GN. And what you wrote about the iPhone ("it can't download anything") isn't quite right as many types of files can be downloaded (including ZIP files). But I definitely prefer Android's ability to download anything.
OK

Most of what I commented on has also been widely reported, but all of it is what I observed (none of it is regurgitated misinformation, as you asserted). Again, overall I prefer my VGN for browsing. My intention was only to point out that the experience is a mixed bag and that video glosses over some iPhone4 browsing advantages.

As a platform agnostic, I'm not interested in what will probably deteriorate into an ugly evangelistic flame-war. Thanks for the video and good luck to you.

idic · Jan 25, 2012

stenzor said:
damn, I didn't even know quick controls existed! So awesome, thanks for showing it!

Try ICS Browser + in the market. It's the normal stock browser, but with the dual layer thumb controls from Honeycomb. Much more useful!

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