Help EVO capping all graphics @ 30FPS?

[sagedil]

Just to be clear. The OP is continuing to complain about a device he does not have to own because they did not build it to meet HIS standards. And he continues to beret the issue even though every other owner who does want the phone says it is not an issue to them.

Am I understanding this right?

 

[MrX8503]

But it isn't crippled. You don't benefit from the extra 30fps at all. It's nearly indistiguishable on such a small device, especially when many games struggle to hold 30fps on a snapdragon's GPU in the first place!

It is crippled, HTC said they added this themselves.

I'm sorry but that is all incorrect.

A. Films are recorded at 24fps, not 30fps.
B. Yes it is for a cinematic feel, but it proves a point: you don't need 60fps to enjoy smooth video.
C. PCs also have hardware limitations, in fact they have moreso, because they have to run on all sorts of different levels of hardware. Sometimes you might be lucky to get 30fps. 30fps is perfectly acceptable for gaming. The "flicker" line is ~20fps, where it stops being fluid and begins looking like a slideshow.

A. I was just rounding off to 30fps for goodness sakes.
B. Why would you need cinematic feel for an OS? Cinema doesn't prove anything, it doesn't apply. Toothpaste cleans my teeth, you want to use that to clean your car? There is no correlation from Cinema to our Android phones.
C. PCs have hardware limitations, but not like consoles. Look at every console port to the PC, the PC version FPS shoots through the roof to almost 100fps. You probably aren't a PC gamer, you wouldn't understand.

Sure they run at 60fps in /areas/, but not really anywhere it matters. What does it matter if there's a cap if the app won't hit over 30fps in the first place? The UI doesn't necessarily benefit from 60fps, videos don't play at 60fps, most games won't hit 60fps, so what is the problem here?

The Incredible is faster and it goes beyond 30fps. The EVO can go beyond 30fps, but hits a ceiling.

Besides, it's already understood that the limitation was put in for battery life concerns. It's not that you were ripped off. Get over it, really. If you were never told or shown, you wouldn't even know.

Actually I did notice, here's a post from me dated back in June of 04 on launch day BEFORE any of this 30fps cap was announced.

Here's the Link
http://androidforums.com/htc-evo-4g/91464-really-really-good-but-not-great.html#post865669

And here's the direct post. Post #35
"This is something that I've been stating for a really long time, but no one actually believed.

For some reason the iPhone's kinetic scrolling and animations are smoother. For example its like the iPhone is running at 60fps while other phones are at 30fps.

The 1ghz snapdragon is fully capable, which has led me to believe that the iPhone OS is either more efficient, or has better coding. The new iPhone HD is supposedly getting an A4, which should make this gap even more prominent.

Hopefully Google can optimize their OS, but as of now, the iPhone is unmatched when it comes to scrolling and transitions."

 

[Vincent Law]

It is crippled, HTC said they added this themselves.

But that doesn't make it crippled. Thanks for playing.

A. I was just rounding off to 30fps for goodness sakes.
B. Why would you need cinematic feel for an OS? Cinema doesn't prove anything, it doesn't apply. Toothpaste cleans my teeth, you want to use that to clean your car? There is no correlation from Cinema to our Android phones.
C. PCs have hardware limitations, but not like consoles. Look at every console port to the PC, the PC version FPS shoots through the roof to almost 100fps. You probably aren't a PC gamer, you wouldn't understand.

A. I don't care.
B. Your point is irrelevant. It's not about cinematic feel, you brought that up. Not me. The point is, 24fps is more than enough for our eyes to avoid "flicker", thus 30fps is not a problem.
C. You haven't played Halo on PC then. Also, be very careful how you state what I am and am not. You're going to start a flamewar with comments like those. Keep it clean.

The Incredible is faster and it goes beyond 30fps. The EVO can go beyond 30fps, but hits a ceiling.



Actually I did notice, here's a post from me dated back in June of 04 on launch day BEFORE any of this 30fps cap was announced.

Here's the Link
http://androidforums.com/htc-evo-4g/91464-really-really-good-but-not-great.html#post865669

And here's the direct post. Post #35
"This is something that I've been stating for a really long time, but no one actually believed.

For some reason the iPhone's kinetic scrolling and animations are smoother. For example its like the iPhone is running at 60fps while other phones are at 30fps.

The 1ghz snapdragon is fully capable, which has led me to believe that the iPhone OS is either more efficient, or has better coding. The new iPhone HD is supposedly getting an A4, which should make this gap even more prominent.

Hopefully Google can optimize their OS, but as of now, the iPhone is unmatched when it comes to scrolling and transitions."

"While other phones". In other words, you thought all phones compared to iPhone were running at a different framerate, a fact that you already acknowledged is incorrect. You can't even tell. Thanks for this reference.

Also refer to my Windows Mobile 7 post above.

 

[MrX8503]

But that doesn't make it crippled. Thanks for playing.

If the Incredible does 60fps then it does.

A. I don't care.
B. Your point is irrelevant. It's not about cinematic feel, you brought that up. Not me. The point is, 24fps is more than enough for our eyes to avoid "flicker", thus 30fps is not a problem.
C. You haven't played Halo on PC then. Also, be very careful how you state what I am and am not. You're going to start a flamewar with comments like those. Keep it clean.

A. LOL, seriously?

B. Again you know nothing about film. Film is at 24fps to give a cinematic feel. Motion blur is added so that you don't get that stutter problem while at the same time adding emphasis to the action. How does this apply to an OS?

C. I haven't played Halo on the PC, but I can name off a handful of PC games that goes beyond 60fps.

"While other phones". In other words, you thought all phones compared to iPhone were running at a different framerate, a fact that you already acknowledged is incorrect. You can't even tell. Thanks for this reference.

I generalized the EVO as "other phones" because that was what I was in the market for, but after comparing the Incredible to the EVO, the Incredible IS faster. In any case I SPECIFICALLY stated 30fps and 60fps in that post, obviously I noticed a discrepancy.

Also refer to my Windows Mobile 7 post above.

While I don't doubt WinMo 7 games won't be amazing, we don't have those games right now to test if they're laggy. Beyond that MS did not state that its 30fps across the board, the OS itself could be running higher.

Heres video proof of the crippling effects of the EVO lag. It has nothing to do with iPhone vs. Android. This is Android vs Android. Take it for what it is.



Granted the Nexus 1 has problems with multitouch, but notice how the Nexus1 DOES NOT LAG. The EVO on the other hand, the touch points doesn't stay on the finger like the Nexus 1.

You think this is just about video fps? Touch lag effects everything you do. Move your icons and widgets around on your homescreen and see it for yourself.

Fixing the 30fps cap may or may not fix this finger tracking lag, but the fact of the matter is that only the EVO has this problem. All other Android devices are fine from what I can tell.

 

[Vincent Law]

If the Incredible does 60fps then it does.



A. LOL, seriously?

B. Again you know nothing about film. Film is at 24fps to give a cinematic feel. Motion blur is added so that you don't get that stutter problem while at the same time adding emphasis to the action. How does this apply to an OS?

C. I haven't played Halo on the PC, but I can name off a handful of PC games that goes beyond 60fps.

A. Yes.
B. Irrelevant, as you still haven't addressed where you'd see 60fps in the first place besides a benchmark and maybe a few places in the UI.
C. Then you must not be much of a PC gamer. (See why those comments are pointless?) Just because your PC runs over 60fps on some games doesn't mean they all do. Go play the Force Unleashed and tell me how that works for you.

I generalized the EVO as "other phones" because that was what I was in the market for, but after comparing the Incredible to the EVO, the Incredible IS faster. In any case I SPECIFICALLY stated 30fps and 60fps in that post, obviously I noticed a discrepancy.

Nice backpedaling.

While I don't doubt WinMo 7 games won't be amazing, we don't have those games right now to test if they're laggy. Beyond that MS did not state that its 30fps across the board, the OS itself could be running higher.

It'll be across the board. I am in the developer program, it's part of the tutorials really.

Heres video proof of the crippling effects of the EVO lag. It has nothing to do with iPhone vs. Android. This is Android vs Android. Take it for what it is.



Granted the Nexus 1 has problems with multitouch, but notice how the Nexus1 DOES NOT LAG. The EVO on the other hand, the touch points doesn't stay on the finger like the Nexus 1.

You think this is just about video fps? Touch lag effects everything you do. Move your icons and widgets around on your homescreen and see it for yourself.

Touch lag != an issue with FPS. You would have the exact same touch lag at 60fps. You don't even understand the effect of 30fps vs. 60fps, apparently. And if you needed anymore proof, that lag is FAR MORE than the difference between 30 and 60fps.

 

[Tiako]

lol for people who think 30fps is OK for a PC game

 

[Vincent Law]

lol for people who think 30fps is OK for a PC game

It is, thanks for playing. There are more than one PC game limited at 30fps, in fact. It's all about minimum framerate, by the way, not average. (Anandtech, one of the most highly regarded tech blogs on PC hardware agrees with me, by the way. So I am not blowing smoke)

Now let's get back on track here.

 

[techs1200]

It is, thanks for playing. There are more than one PC game limited at 30fps, in fact. It's all about minimum framerate, by the way, not average. (Anandtech, one of the most highly regarded tech blogs on PC hardware agrees with me, by the way. So I am not blowing smoke)

Now let's get back on track here.

You've got an attitude problem, and you are defending an artificial limitation imposed on the EVO.

Work for HTC?

 

[sagedil]

HTC made the phone. Their right to make it any damn well they please. Your right to not buy it or return it if you are not pleased.

Throwing temper tantrums about it pathetic. Again, thank you Vincent.

 

[Vincent Law]

You've got an attitude problem, and you are defending an artificial limitation imposed on the EVO.

Work for HTC?

And Microsoft, and anyone else whoever considered limiting phones to 30fps, apparently.

 

[techs1200]

But it isn't crippled. You don't benefit from the extra 30fps at all.

Citation needed.

 

[techs1200]

And Microsoft, and anyone else whoever considered limiting phones to 30fps, apparently.

But certainly not HTC's other phone (with identical hardware), the nexus one

If you are so anti-60fps then you should be bitching about the nexus one's 60fps wasting battery...

Why don't you write to ATi and nVidia and demand they limit their GPUs to 30fps?

 

[Vincent Law]

Citation needed.

Already explained in a previous post. See also: my comments about most games not running above 30fps on Snapdragon GPUs, videos never playing back above 30fps, and the UI generally not requiring 60fps in the first place (as it's mostly static).

But certainly not HTC's other phone (with identical hardware), the nexus one

If you are so anti-60fps then you should be bitching about the nexus one's 60fps wasting battery...

The Nexus One has a smaller screen, and no 4G modem? Frankly, I don't have a problem with putting it on all phones to save battery.

After all, that's what Microsoft is doing.

 

[MrX8503]

A. Yes.
B. Irrelevant, as you still haven't addressed where you'd see 60fps in the first place besides a benchmark and maybe a few places in the UI.
C. Then you must not be much of a PC gamer. (See why those comments are pointless?) Just because your PC runs over 60fps on some games doesn't mean they all do. Go play the Force Unleashed and tell me how that works for you.

A. I bet you're the one who makes sure that people pay you back if it were only pennies of a difference.

B. Irrelevant because you don't understand film? Ok

C. I don't play Halo so that doesn't make me much of a PC gamer? Haha, whatever dude. If console ports consistently get higher FPS compared to native PC games, those are FACTS, end of story. Enjoy Crysis on your Xbox.

Nice backpedaling.

Nice that I have documented proof of my statements. What do you have?

It'll be across the board. I am in the developer program, it's part of the tutorials really.

I'm sure you are. In any case WinMo7 is not even out, we don't even know the implications of the OS, its Drivers, performance, or what kind of games it involves. Also WinMo != Android OS.

Touch lag != an issue with FPS. You would have the exact same touch lag at 60fps. You don't even understand the effect of 30fps vs. 60fps, apparently. And if you needed anymore proof, that lag is FAR MORE than the difference between 30 and 60fps.

The video doesn't prove that the 30fps cap is the direct cause, but there IS a problem with the EVO as the Nexus doesn't produce the lag. The video proves this but yet you still refuse to believe it. Someone tell this dude that the Earth isn't flat.

I have several more videos to prove it to you if you'd like. This is pretty ridiculous though, I just want a better phone and its not even about Android vs iPhone, yet your bias and pride is so strong that you've become blind to the faults of this device.

 

[LordDelmar]

Hate to say it Vincent, but I can tell the difference in 30 fps and 60 fps in every instance. While this may not be causing our touch lag, which I bet is driver related as well considering HTC's track record, it is an issue. Yes, 30 fps is 'acceptable' as a framerate for a good portion of games.

Personally, I do see the problem and noticed it the very first time I scrolled through the programs list. Didn't get upset or even slightly annoyed because 80-90% of the time, it is not going to matter to me. The games I play on my phone generally do not demand fluid movement.

That being said, the idea that if the FPS is capped and the processor gets bogged down for a moment, you notice it far more. If the framerate dips below 24, you instantly notice it, whereas if it was at 60 and it dropped to even 40, you would not notice it as much.

I want the choice. Even if it means more battery being used. Give me the choice to limit FPS when I am not playing something I want to be fluid, and turn it on when I want to show the device off or play a game. That is all anyone could ask for.

 

[MrX8503]

Throwing temper tantrums about it pathetic. Again, thank you Vincent.

Double standard much?

Anyway, back on topic.

The point is 60fps is capable. Droid Incredible has it, HTC Hero has it. HTC stated that the EVO is capped at 30fps by design.

Whether or not you can notice this is up to you, but it is irrelevant to the fact that we were sold a phone that was held back by HTC. Its up to you if you want to keep it or give it up.

Arguing about the issue is like trying to fit a square block into a circle hole. There is video proof, there is documentation out there, there are emails from HTC stating this, yet people still refuse to accept it as truth.

If you are fine with the lag, then thats ok, but don't try to convince me that there isn't lag involved.

 

[Vincent Law]

A. I bet you're the one makes sure that people pay you back if it were only pennies of a difference.

B. Irrelevant because you don't understand film? Ok

C. I don't play Halo so that doesn't make me much of a PC gamer? Haha, whatever dude. If console ports consistently get higher FPS compared to native PC games, those are FACTS, end of story. Enjoy Crysis on your Xbox.

A. Why are you even talking on this point still?
B. No, irrelevant for the reason I stated. Don't try to avoid the subject.
C. Again, all of that is completely irrelevant, and in fact you've lost sight of the point here in the first place. If console games target 30fps, 30fps MUST be an acceptable gaming framerate, period.

Nice that I have documented proof of my statements. What do you have?

It was a statement which you yourself agree was mistaken. How is that documented proof? It's a statement which when you were called out on you backpedaled from, trying to cover your mistake.

I'm sure you are. In any case WinMo7 is not even out, we don't even know the implications of the OS, its Drivers, performance, or what kind of games it involves. Also WinMo != Android OS.

No, actually we do know that fact, as it is explicitly stated to developers when they begin writing software, so they know what to target their games and applications for. It's not going to suddenly change as the OS goes into code freeze.

WinMo is not Android. Your point? This is a statement about phones capping their framerate, not about specific OSes.

The video doesn't prove that the 30fps cap is the direct cause, but there IS a problem with the EVO as the Nexus doesn't produce the lag. The video proves this but yet you still refuse to believe it. Someone tell this dude that the Earth isn't flat.

I never denied there was touch lag. I'm not here to defend the EVO on all points. You simply made a wholly incorrect assumption that touch lag is caused by the 30fps cap. It is not. That is the subject of the thread, and that is what I am going to talk about.

I have several more videos to prove it to you if you'd like. This is pretty ridiculous though, I just want a better phone and its not even about Android vs iPhone, yet your bias and pride is so strong that you've become blind to the faults of this device.

If you truly believe that, then why are you here? If you think everything I say is just bias and pride, not intelligent, sensible answers to your assumptions of the effects of a 30fps cap, then why bother?

 

[Vincent Law]

That being said, the idea that if the FPS is capped and the processor gets bogged down for a moment, you notice it far more. If the framerate dips below 24, you instantly notice it, whereas if it was at 60 and it dropped to even 40, you would not notice it as much.

That isn't how it would work. If there was an instance where, if uncapped, the phone would achieve 40fps, it would still be 30fps.

It's not a ratio, it's a cap. As long as the framerate would be 30+fps on the EVO without the cap, it will be exactly 30fps with the cap.

 

[MrX8503]

What a big headache.

Like I said, the square block does not fit in the circle hole.

Even with documented proof, video proof, statements from HTC, statements/benchmarks from XDA, benchmarks from Android Central, articles from Engadget and other tech websites, direct calls to XDA from Dan Hesse, you still refuse to accept the 30fps cap issue at hand.

If you're happy with the device, great for you. I'm just looking for the best device out there for what I paid for. I love the Sprint network, but my EVO is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Tiako]

It is, thanks for playing. There are more than one PC game limited at 30fps, in fact. It's all about minimum framerate, by the way, not average. (Anandtech, one of the most highly regarded tech blogs on PC hardware agrees with me, by the way. So I am not blowing smoke)

Now let's get back on track here.

Wrong FPS is very important in a shooter. Why do you think people run dual cards.. Just to increase frame rate.. Pc gamers are always trying to get the highest fps and you are telling all us gamers that FPS means nothing lol

 

[Vincent Law]

Wrong FPS is very important in a shooter. Why do you think people run dual cards.. Just to increase frame rate.. Pc gamers are always trying to get the highest fps and you are telling all us gamers that FPS means nothing lol

No, that's more for benchmark enthusiasts and people who want the absolute maximum graphical quality on their games running on 30" Dell monitors with >1080p resolution.

Real gamers, the ones who actually go to tournaments, generally put their settings on low and don't go with complicated setups for stability, and to ensure the minimum framerate is acceptable.

 

[Vincent Law]

What a big headache.

Like I said, the square block does not fit in the circle hole.

Even with documented proof, video proof, statements from HTC, statements/benchmarks from XDA, benchmarks from Android Central, articles from Engadget and other tech websites, direct calls to XDA from Dan Hesse, you still refuse to accept the 30fps cap issue at hand.

If you're happy with the device, great for you. I'm just looking for the best device out there for what I paid for. I love the Sprint network, but my EVO is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

I don't really get what you're talking about. All this "documented proof" and statements from HTC simply state that there is a 30fps cap. That isn't even up for debate here, never was. The issue is /does this matter/? The answer: for 99.999% of people who do not care about benchmarks, no.

 

[C_Dub]

HTC intentionally crippling the EVO is going to make them look very bad in the eyes of those who are tech savvy. It's not just one thing, it's SEVERAL things they tried to take shortcuts on and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people take back their phones after being so blindly mislead this is a "superphone". Given that 4G isn't widely available is another reason, but that's out of HTC's hands.

That said, this looks software related so if HTC gets off their lazy asses maybe we can resolve these issues through updates. There is NO REASON other phones with equal or inferior hardware should run smoother and lag less than the EVO.

 

[MrX8503]

No, that's more for benchmark enthusiasts and people who want the absolute maximum graphical quality on their games running on 30" Dell monitors with >1080p resolution.

Real gamers, the ones who actually go to tournaments, generally put their settings on low and don't go with complicated setups for stability, and to ensure the minimum framerate is acceptable.

Dude what the heck are you talking about?

In a high profile First Person shooter game, you want the highest frames per second possible so that you don't experience ghosting/lag or whatever. Then after that you make sure that you have a fast connection. They also have very fast TN panels.

I don't know any serious PC first person shooter players accepting a minimum framerate, they accept 60fps.

 

[MrX8503]

I don't really get what you're talking about. All this "documented proof" and statements from HTC simply state that there is a 30fps cap. That isn't even up for debate here, never was. The issue is /does this matter/? The answer: for 99.999% of people who do not care about benchmarks, no.

Does it matter? Well it should because you know why? History tends to repeat itself if you accept the faults.

HTCClassAction.org - Because HTC dropped the ball, and it's about time they pick it up!

Continue to bend over for HTC.