Nursing Home Staff Refuses To Perform CPR On Dying Woman

[Gmash]

You're still more worried more about policies and regulations than a human life. Nowhere have I seen it reported that she had a DNR. If she did, that's totally different. They just don't want to get sued for breaking an old persons rib or something.
If I had a loved one struggling to breathe, I would want the dispatcher to act just like that. She did everything in her power to try to save a life. She said "if you won't do it, find someone who will." What's so bad about that?

 

[A.Nonymous]

You're still more worried more about policies and regulations than a human life. Nowhere have I seen it reported that she had a DNR. If she did, that's totally different. They just don't want to get sued for breaking an old persons rib or something.
If I had a loved one struggling to breathe, I would want the dispatcher to act just like that. She did everything in her power to try to save a life. She said "if you won't do it, find someone who will." What's so bad about that?

So you think it's cool for a dispatcher to belittle a caller and make a situation worse? You call 911 cuz your world is falling apart and the professional thing for the dispatcher to do is to make things worse in every way? That's ridiculous and clearly you've never worn the headset or worked with emergency services in any capacity.

Also, the family has come out and supported the caller's decision saying it's what their mom would've wanted and that she was fully aware of the policy and chose to live there anyway. So the dispatcher acted like a complete jerk and tried to badger a caller into doing something they weren't comfortable with and would've violated the wishes of patient and then proceeded to make the caller feel bad on top of everything. Furthermore the call taker offered to take legal liability for the caller's actions which they probably can't even do legally and which exposes the entire organization to ginormous law suits. When you're a dispatcher you don't have all the facts about the situation and every experienced dispatcher should know this. This dispatcher should be canned IMO or disciplined at the very least.

 

[ElasticNinja]

It's a complete non-story. The woman who died had signed an agreement saying she did not want resuscitation. Why the media doesn't emphasize that is beyond me.

If that is true then this is indeed a non-story. Few people at that age survive more than a few weeks after CPR anyway, and often in the most painful way.

Everyone has to die.

 

[A.Nonymous]

If that is true then this is indeed a non-story. Few people at that age survive more than a few weeks after CPR anyway, and often in the most painful way.

Everyone has to die.

Well, the family is now saying that their mom would've wanted it this way, it was her wish and they wish the media wasn't blowing it up. How does the media respond? Interview more people who will call for legislation to fix this. That's right. We need legislation to fix a problem that isn't even there. This is why our society is screwed.

 

[Bob Maxey]

This is probably not a legal issue, AFAIK no one is required to perform CPR. This could be the impetus for some legal reform. What it is is deeply saddening that an individual could stand by and let another die while possessing the skill to possibly prevent it. I know I couldn't regardless of any company rules.

Another thing this should bring to light? Learn CPR...EVERYBODY! It's easy, free and you might save a life. My wish is that CPR be taught to every school child as soon as they are old enough. This way, eventually everyone will know how to do it.

I would be willing to bet that in every state, every day, some nurse or doctor watches a patient die because of a DNR order. And the families stand by and watch it happen.

Not sure what the law has to say, but I would also be willing to bet that there are possible legal issues. Perhaps a nurse can get sued for violating the patient's wishes or perhaps a doctor or nurse can end up paying high premiums after the lawsuit.

This is a case of Bob just guessing.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Well, the family is now saying that their mom would've wanted it this way, it was her wish and they wish the media wasn't blowing it up. How does the media respond? Interview more people who will call for legislation to fix this. That's right. We need legislation to fix a problem that isn't even there. This is why our society is screwed.

But how much standing does this have when a case is brought into a courtroom? I do not know, so I am asking.

Can a court afford to take the word of family or is there a legal procedure in place to protect doctors and nurses. I did a little research and there are procedures in place recognized by the courts.

My guess is there is so much outrage because the general public never deals with these issues.

From the "what it adds to the discussion" department:

"In 1991 Congress passed into law the Patient Self-Determination Act that mandated hospitals honor an individual's decision in their healthcare."

Do not resuscitate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bob Maxey]

You're still more worried more about policies and regulations than a human life. Nowhere have I seen it reported that she had a DNR. If she did, that's totally different. They just don't want to get sued for breaking an old persons rib or something.
If I had a loved one struggling to breathe, I would want the dispatcher to act just like that. She did everything in her power to try to save a life. She said "if you won't do it, find someone who will." What's so bad about that?

From Good, old Wikepedia:

"In the United States the documentation is especially complicated in that each state accepts different forms, and advance directives and living wills are not accepted by EMS as legally valid forms. If a patient has a living will that states the patient wishes to be DNR but does not have an appropriately filled out state sponsored form that is co-signed by a physician, EMS will attempt resuscitation. This is a little known fact to many patients and primary care physicians that can cause patients to receive treatments they do not want, and this law is currently being evaluated for a constitutional challenge."

If I read this right, EMS is not required to follow a certain things a patent might not want, like finally finding the peace of death and flung back into a pain filled world.

But I have not had eggs and sausages yet, and my brain's turbines are not yet up to speed, Batman.

 

[A.Nonymous]

If a doctor or nurse tries to resuscitate a patient with a DNR they can be charged with assault or, if they use something like an AED, aggravated assault in some cases. Whether they'd be charged or not is another question, but the doctor/nurse is essentially treating a patient against their will.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Well, the family is now saying that their mom would've wanted it this way, it was her wish and they wish the media wasn't blowing it up. How does the media respond? Interview more people who will call for legislation to fix this. That's right. We need legislation to fix a problem that isn't even there. This is why our society is screwed.

I think states need to legislate for DNR orders, if they haven't already. Just to stop stuff like this.

 

[Gmash]

There was no DNR that I know of, and as for the family saying "that's what she would have wanted", that's not exactly something you can check on in the heat of the moment. An 86 year old in an assisted living facility should have a living will at least.

 

[A.Nonymous]

There was no DNR that I know of, and as for the family saying "that's what she would have wanted", that's not exactly something you can check on in the heat of the moment. An 86 year old in an assisted living facility should have a living will at least.

There's no need to check in the heat of the moment since she agreed to not be resuscitated when she signed up.

 

[Gmash]

Being informed that the staff is not medically trained and are not required to help beyond calling 911 is nowhere near the same thing as a DNR. The EMTs still tried to save her. But I'm done. You obviously think the fine print in a contract is reason enough to not help a dying person. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Bob Maxey]

I think states need to legislate for DNR orders, if they haven't already. Just to stop stuff like this.

When you are old, feeble and sick; when your life is nothing but pain and drugs do not help, it is time to go and a DNR or other instrument should be made available to make sure some do-gooders do not try to "save" you.

I would like to see every care facility follow the same rules. Be it a hospice or nursing home or hospital, a patient can sign one paper and have it available to everyone involved in your care.

You must be judged mentally fit before you can sign one, however. If you are complaining that Gilligan and the Skipper sneaks into your room every night and steals part of your soul or brain tissue and you just want to die, well, no DNR for you!

Why is it we think life is so precious and god help us if we suggest that it is OK to give up? There are many reasons why someone should be allowed to die but the public wont have any part of it.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Being informed that the staff is not medically trained and are not required to help beyond calling 911 is nowhere near the same thing as a DNR. The EMTs still tried to save her. But I'm done. You obviously think the fine print in a contract is reason enough to not help a dying person. We'll have to agree to disagree.

The fact that the person did not want you to help them and expressed as much is reason to not help a dying person.

But let's look at it from your perspective. Let's say it was ok for this dispatcher to badger and belittle this caller (it's not) and that she got this caller to actually perform CPR. First of all, CPR over the phone almost never works and is going to be less effective given the fact that this lady didn't want to perform it in the first place. But let's just say that she not only performs CPR but actually successfully resuscitates this woman. Great. Now you have violated the wishes of the woman, violated the wishes of the woman's family, possibly broken the law and, I would argue, done something immoral by not allowing this woman to die with dignity the way she wanted. Also, it's entirely likely that this woman will now have severe health problems because of this incident and that is entirely on this woman. Not to even mention the legal implications of your action.

What happened here is the caller honored the wishes of the patient. The woman who passed was ok with it. Her family knew this is what she wanted and is ok with it. This is a complete non-incident that this dispatcher blew way, way, way out of proportion. Now this woman is on voluntary leave, the authorities are talking about filing charges against her, her career has probably been halted, the legislature is talking about passing legislation about this and, worst of all, the woman's family is forced to grieve publicly when they shouldn't have to. All of this is because a stupid dispatcher acted in the most unprofessional manner possible and because the media made a knee jerk reaction and blew this up before they had all their facts.

 

[Speed Daemon]

Being informed that the staff is not medically trained and are not required to help beyond calling 911...

The reports that I saw say that it was a bona fide nurse calling 911. If they had the title of "Nurse" then they're required to know first aid in order to be licensed. I also heard that the nurse has been suspended and is facing malpractice charges. FYI

 

[A.Nonymous]

The reports that I saw say that it was a bona fide nurse calling 911. If they had the title of "Nurse" then they're required to know first aid in order to be licensed. I also heard that the nurse has been suspended and is facing malpractice charges. FYI

If true it's complete BS given that she followed the wishes of the patient and the patients family. The nurse should be applauded not demonized.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Being informed that the staff is not medically trained and are not required to help beyond calling 911 is nowhere near the same thing as a DNR. The EMTs still tried to save her. But I'm done. You obviously think the fine print in a contract is reason enough to not help a dying person. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Well, assuming there was a DNR in place, yes, it is the print in the contract that matters and a DNR is indeed the reason you do not help some dying patients.

This happens every day in this country. We do not violate a dying patients requests.

 

[Speed Daemon]

If true it's complete BS given that she followed the wishes of the patient and the patients family. The nurse should be applauded not demonized.

Personally I'd wait until I knew what the answer to that particular "if" question was, before passing judgment.

But I see that "formalities" like discovering the facts don't matter in many people's minds. I think that's a crying shame, because taking sides without any concern for the facts is the definition of bigotry, and nothing good has come from bigotry.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Personally I'd wait until I knew what the answer to that particular "if" question was, before passing judgment.

But I see that "formalities" like discovering the facts don't matter in many people's minds. I think that's a crying shame, because taking sides without any concern for the facts is the definition of bigotry, and nothing good has come from bigotry.

I don't know what facts you're waiting to be discovered. The family has already said this was their mom's wish and this is what their mom would've wanted. Don't know what other facts matter here.

 

[BmXStuD]

Very sad.Very

 

[Bob Maxey]

I don't know what facts you're waiting to be discovered. The family has already said this was their mom's wish and this is what their mom would've wanted. Don't know what other facts matter here.

What facts? All we seem to have is what some family members say the woman wanted. There are no facts as far as I can see, just what family says were the wishes of the departed.

The only problem with the family wishes is who really knows if the departed's wishes were what the family now claims they are/were?

Courts must have documents. Before charges can be filed, prosecutors likely want some documents to codify what the family is saying. So why should any hospice, hospital, EMT, or doctor go by what some family members claim?

Suppose the dead woman left a huge estate? As long as she is alive, there is no cash flow and decedents want cash flow. As soon as she dies, well, that changes things. A greedy family could say she did not want to be saved.

 

[davoid]

Everyone has to die.

That's a bit harsh.