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General Question about graphical capabilities of the Evo 3D compared to Tegra 2 chipsets.

Discussion in 'Android Devices' started by Span_Wolf, May 27, 2011.

  1. Span_Wolf

    Span_Wolf Member
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    I'm new to these forums, so forgive any questions or mistakes of ignorance I am making with this thread, but I'm wondering about that. *points above*

    I've never owned any particularly powerful smartphones, I owned the G1 then the Mytouch Slide, now I'm moving to Sprint and want the Evo 3D quite badly. So I have some questions about power and capabilities. Being a hardcore gamer, if I'm going to get a high end smartphone I want one that can handle any cellphone games being put out on the platform. I'm not too familiar with cellphone chipsets, but I know that some games are being specifically developed for the Tegra 2 platform. I'm wondering if the Evo 3D is comprably powerful, and/or if we can expect to see some of those Tegra 2 games to be ported over to the Evo 3D?

    I see Tegra 2 developed game screenshots like this, and am amazed that within a few months we'll be playing cellphones games of that quality. But then again am bummed at the idea that they might not get ported, which would just serve to further fracture the Android platform, which I'm sure Google does not want and would take steps to mitigate. So I ask, what do you guys think are the odds that the Evo 3D will be able to play anything currently put out or that things from comparable chipsets will be ported?

    [​IMG]
     

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  2. Vanquished

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    Or other things like this:

    YouTube - ‪Epic Citadel on iPhone 4 HD GRAPHICS 1080P‬‏
    Google Image Result for http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2010/12/infinity_blade_14-660x439.jpg

    The technology is in current phones other than Tegra powered devices, but because of Nvidia alot of these titles are exclusive. I'd like to hope that these games are ported to other devices such as the E3D and SGSII though. If developers continue to make these exclusive games for certain devices (with it be the Xperia play or Tegra powered devices) there will probably be a decline in gaming on Android phones.
     
  3. Span_Wolf

    Span_Wolf Member
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    Well I could imagine, and accept Nvidia chipset devices getting first crack with an exclusive launch window, where it is released to everyone else after a pre-determined period of time. But to flat deny ports only serves to, as I said before, further fragment the platform as well as deprive the hard working developers gobs of money they rightfully deserve.
     
  4. Jackietreehorn

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    Looks like there's been some progress in getting Tegra 2 games to play on non Tegra phones using Chainfire 3D: Chainfire 3D Allow To Play Tegra Zone Games On Non Tegra Devices | TheTechJournal.com

    Also, that screenshot, from the article I read, was specifically referencing the Tegra 3, and mentioned that it would also support Tegra 2 (but kind of inferred that it may be scaled down a bit). Perhaps I just read an outdated article?
     
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  5. Vanquished

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    I completely agree but the few titles that have actually been launched so far for Tegra devices don't have any mention of being ported to other devices yet, which is moving towards that fragmentation you speak of.
     
  6. lpjzfan2005

    lpjzfan2005 Newbie
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    Im also pretty sure that the Game in the screenshot was for the Tegra 3. The adreno 220 has said to bring console quality graphics. Dont look into the Sensation& Evo 3D's quadrant score being so low because it has 35% more pixels to push vs SGSII. In other words, they already have a few tegra zone games working on 1 Ghz single core processors, there is no need to worry about this not being able to handle it. The community will find a way to make it work for sure, just like they have made the rest of our devices go beyond their limits.
     
  7. Span_Wolf

    Span_Wolf Member
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    So the fact that you can hack Tegra games to run on non Tegra phones only goes to show that it is an arbitrary and greed based restriction to begin with?

    Edit: Ok since you guys say that screen is from a Tegra 3 based game, IGN fails again.., then let me ask if the Evo 3D is anywhere near comparable to Tegra 3 devices?
     
  8. Vanquished

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    Here is a thread that talks a little more about it, as well as some games that work/don't work with certain devices. One thing that Shocky mentions is that if the game uses PhysX then Chainfire 3D won't work.
     
  9. lpjzfan2005

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    I would bet on the next generation snapdragon and Adreno to be on par with the Tegra 3. Tegra 3 is said to be quad core and the GPU will be better of course. So I wouldn't say the 3vo would be on par with that, but it might be able to run a scaled version of the game. This is all speculation of course, but technology is moving fast, if you wait forever you'll never get a phone becuase something better will be out!! If the 3vo releases within the next month its looking like it will reign supreme in the us... until the holiday season lol
     
  10. lpjzfan2005

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    That really sucks if true!! Have or are they working on a port to make that work??
     
  11. lordofthereef

    lordofthereef Android Expert
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    I do believe the pic posted by the OP is actually of a game running on Tegra 3.

    Regardless, gaming is one reason I am holding off [from the 3D], for the time being. I am happy with what my EVO can do for me currently, minus gaming, where it fails horribly. I don't game that much, but it would be nice to kill time with once in a blue moon. If the 3D does well, it's back on my list.
     
  12. Vanquished

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    I have seen multiple different articles saying Tegra 3 will be 2x-5x faster than the current device. It will be Quad-core as already mentioned.

    ASUS planning quad-core Tegra 3 tablet, yet another Intel slate -- Engadget

    Although it appears most of the devices getting the Tegra 3 first will be tablets, I bet we will see some phones with it at the beginning of 2012.
     
  13. Span_Wolf

    Span_Wolf Member
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    So basically if you want the Evo 3D you might as well get it, otherwise you will be waiting at least half a year for the next gen of quad core phones that may or may not have any good games at launch or at least for a few months.

    I can live with that.
     
  14. EarlyMon

    EarlyMon The PearlyMon
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    Welcome to the forums!

    Never worry about questions here, we don't go for the flame wars like other forums do. As you've seen, the cats here are helpful and informative, per usual. ;) :)
     
  15. Vanquished

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    Ya, because you'll basically be waiting forever like Ipjzfan said above if you just wait for new tech that has been announced.

    The E3D will be capable of doing alot of nice things, especially with games, although it may not be the very best. There have been several topics about current generation (dual-core phones) and the capabilities of their GPU's.

    Here's some that I started a while back:
    http://androidforums.com/android-lounge/302801-dual-core-processor-debate.html
    http://androidforums.com/android-lounge/252065-dual-core-phones.html

    Outside debates:
    http://forum.androidcentral.com/phone-wars/58145-snapdragon-vs-tegra-2-vs-orion.html
    http://www.tested.com/news/hummingbird-vs-snapdragon-vs-omap-vs-tegra-2-arm-chips-explained/1704/

    I'm sure there are many more you can find as well. We can't really tell right now which are better in real world situations until we can get our hands on all of the devices with these different chips though.

    Here is one of the posts from the first link:

     
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  16. lordofthereef

    lordofthereef Android Expert
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    Have we actually seen any game demos? This is something I would love to see before making a decision. At first I was all for the 3D but am on the fence.
     
  17. Vanquished

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    Let me rephrase that a little...with the new hardware and boasting of console quality games by Qualcomm, it should be able to run games fairly well and compete at a higher level with other devices, much better than the EVO ever did with other phones of its generation. I'll use my current EVO as an example. Running it at the stock 994mhz (or whatever it runs at) quite a few 3D games have their sluggish moments. After rooting it and clocking it at 1152 everything runs silky smooth (StarFront and Shadow Guardian to name a couple). IMO, the extra 400mhz (200 from each core) on the E3D will make up for what it lacks in GPU performance on it's competitors with 1ghz CPUs. Even more so if you root and clock it to 1500, giving you another 600mhz (300 from each core).

    That being said, in terms of overall gaming performance as Medion said in the quote I linked, the E3D may not perform as well as the competition in this area.

    I'm with you though, I'll probably wait to see not only how it performs but what actually gets released for it. What will also make or break my decision is what other phones Sprint will release within the next couple of months, as well as what games/apps will actually be available for those as well.
     
  18. Emmexx

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    In regards to the Shadowgun game in the OP, the creators Madfinger(love that name!) stated in the coming soon page that there would be a version for both the T2 and an enhanced version for the T3. To me, that says those pics were from the T2 version. Here is the link: Coming soon | MADFINGER Games

    In regards to how games play on the E3D, the Spider-Man game was one available at Google I/O and other places. I have links below for both a review and an actual vid of the Spider Man game. FWIW, it looked like it played beautifully.

    My EVO 3D review - Android Forums
    HTC S3D SDK Allows for 3D Apps, Game Development for HTC EVO 3D
     
  19. Vanquished

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    I didn't mention that game because it is one that is currently available on most devices. I know it is optimized with the 3D effects, but what I'd like to know is if it takes full advantage of the new hardware. If I were to turn the 3D off and play it, would it look and feel better than the current version available?
     
  20. Emmexx

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    Ah, gotcha. I think it will play smooth, but without further games to test, it is tough to know for sure. I looked for vids but nothing immediately came up.
     
  21. Span_Wolf

    Span_Wolf Member
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    All this scary talk about the E3D's graphical capabilities is kinda worrying me. Especially, "You can't go wrong with any chip, but if you're a 3D gamer, ONLY get Tegra 2 or Exynos." I am a big gamer, so how should I take that?
     
  22. lordofthereef

    lordofthereef Android Expert
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    Fair enough. I was simply asking about current graphically intensive games though. I know there are a couple 3D games that are sluggish even with an overclocked evo (for the life of me I cannot remember the name, but its an online multiplayer fantasy game that I am thinking of). I guess I am simply saying I would like to see some of the next gen games running on the 3D before I make any decisions on its graphics rendering capabilities. I will be floored if the image above (in the original post) is a game that can/will run smoothly on the 3D.
     
  23. lordofthereef

    lordofthereef Android Expert
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    Take it how I am taking it. Wait for a demo unit. If they are going to be pushing its graphics capabilities you can bet the demo unit will have a 3d rendered game or two on it for you to mess around with. I am also sure once we get the phone release to the public that we will see some better benchmarks (where we can actually legitimately compare numbers).
     
  24. fattank

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    There's really no question. The Adreno 220 in the Evo 3D utterly destroyed everything that was out (including/especially the tegra 2).
    http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4243/36161.png
    http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4243/36162.png

    (Other smartphones incl. SGSII from same site with same tests, so numbers should carry over):
    http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4177/35412.png
    http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4177/35413.png

    The graphics capabilities of the Adreno 220 inside the Evo 3D are beyond belief. It makes the iPhone look like a joke -- now if only devs would release games like Infinity Blade and such for Android. This is currently the most graphically advanced chipset on a mobile device on the planet.

    Now imagine this baby overclocked to 2+Ghz now that the bootloaders are unlocked (recall that the Adreno clock scales with CPU clock).

    For an example game, check this out: YouTube - ‪Snapdragon's Adreno GPU - Desert Winds Game Demo‬‏

    "When it comes to the MPCore, Qualcomm did their own thing and make Scorpion. It has many similarities to Cortex A8, to include NEON support, but also has some nice benefits, such as multi-core support and a 128-bit SIMD instruction set. In real world performance today, with the A8 as baseline, a Scorpion will outperform the A8 by about 5% at the same clock speeds, and an A9 will beat the A8 by about 20% at the same clock speeds. Nonsense. The a9 is rarely 20% faster. Even 15% is more in line with actual threaded benchmarks. I'll address the "5%" nonsense below.

    -- This much is true, of course.

    -- This is nonsense of the first order, born of placebo, bad past implementations, and pure folly. Look at the benchmarks (particularly the real rendering ones like GLBenchmark 2 Egypt/Pro with screen size accounted for). A more accurate and non-biased ranking would be:
    Adreno 220 > SGX543 (A5) > Tegra 2 >= MALI400 >= Adreno 205 (Play) > SGX530 > Adreno 200.

    What utterly, grotesquely absurd drivel born of bigoted, unscientific bias. When tested on devices of comparable resolutions and near-identical kernel build (and truly identical stock 2.2.1 Android build save for the drivers), screen turned off and all radios turned on, the differences between, for instance, the QSD8250 and the SGS a8 hummingbird are laughably apparent. The A8 draws almost 50% more power at 1.4Ghz+.

    The dual-core 45nm gen 3 MSM8660 snapdragon with independent clock units and newer enhanced Scorpion MPCore draws lower sustained power across the board, even heavily overclocked (or simply at 1.5Ghz like they were designed for). In terms of handset differences, yes, HTC's snapdragon devices are only "barely on par" with the others because of many things, not just the battery size (which has tended to be a bit smaller). Sense 2 is very resource-hungry and the build (not to mention the various Sense widgets, additional Sense I/O, sense radio usage, etc) draw power like no other. It also is among the most graphically intensive overlays (due to the actual graphical output or to poor coding is debatable, of course).

    "There is no clear winner. If you're a 3D gamer, ONLY get Tegra 2 or Exynos." And of course a conclusion drawn from nonsense is nonsense, like this one. Even for a gamer, they will all do well, and currently the Adreno 220 on the MSM8660 (in the Evo 3D and Sensation) is leading the pack by a very solid margin. By design, that is. Implementation-side optimization is always better left to the community, of course.

    What people don't seem to realize is that beyond just a 'die-shrink', despite retaining the name, the third-gen Scorpion 45nm is now well over "5%" faster per-clock than the stock A8. Although the architecture is very similar, there have been remarkable improvements. As Qualcomm themselves presented on March 11 during their MPCore overview in Korea, the MSM8x60 is a huge amount over "5%" faster per clock, and a huge amount more power efficient than even the A9, not the least of which is due to the independent core clock scaling. As for the "console quality graphics" myth, no mobile chipset is there yet. During the same presentation (and now on their website), Qualcomm also admitted the Adreno 220 isn't the "console level" GPU they talked about at all -- that's the 3XX series with the 8X70 ("NEXT GEN", which is also reportedly 47% more power efficient than the A15 with 23% more performance headroom).

    The MSM8660 (the one in the Evo 3D) has, in addition to its 128-bit FPU (with 1.5-6x performance of the 64-bit in the A9), an enhanced OOO unit, 8 outstanding non-cacheable loads in L1 cache (versus only 1 in the a9, meaning significantly better multimedia processing), and a tightly coupled 512kb L2 with much lower memory latency and better CPU snappiness/efficiency as opposed to A9's embarrassingly loose-coupled L2. "5%" better is the biggest load of bull I've heard since the 65nm scorpion was tested under a suboptimal arm linux build on lkml for a preliminary benchmark vs the already-optimized stock A8. Its dual core "real world performance" of the chipset in total at 1.2Ghz is roughly 30% better than the reference dual A9 with comparable governor and identically configured kernel (and distro/android build). The 2.6.32 stock kernel is now much better optimized for the 45nm chips and actually takes advantage of the additional FPU and larger NEON superset when compiled properly. Since then the last-gen 8x55 at 1.4Ghz has proven comparable to a dual core stock a9 at 1ghz, and with a similar power profile to boot. As clock speeds get higher, scorpion has an even greater power advantage. At 1.2Ghz, the snapdragon is quite a bit more power efficient than the 1.2Ghz a9, for instance, and beyond that the difference can breach 75%.

    The Adreno 220 GPU is over double the performance of the Adreno 205, which itself was nearly on par or better than the likes of the first gen hummingbird's GPU (SGS 1's SGX) in almost all of the modern GL2.0 benchmarks (and well over double the performance of the Adreno 200).

    Take the glorified pro-Samsung/Tegra nonsense you hear with a grain (or bucket) of salt. Just because people are stigmatized against Qualcomm due to HTC's legacy of providing underclocked devices with older graphics drivers (SE is the only company who bothered to ship their device, the Play, with updated Adreno 205 drivers, by the way), doesn't take away anything from the fact that even the Adreno 205 can essentially hold its own against even the Tegra 2. The 220 is double the real-world performance of that.
     
  25. Vanquished

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    Here's an article to go along with that as well:
    Qualcomm OnQ Blog - Snapdragon? Adreno 220 GPU Powers "Desert Winds" Game at MWC

    We still need to see how it performs in real world experiences on "real" devices though such as the E3D and the Sensation. From the article:

    "Desert Winds was shown in stereoscopic and non-stereoscopic 3D via HDMI out to a 55-inch HD LCD display. As with Qualcomm’s other dual-core Snapdragon MSM8660 demos at the show, the new Desert Winds game was running on the Snapdragon Mobile Development Platform (MDP), which is a device available to developers who want early access to Snapdragon chipsets and Adreno GPUs. (Get more info on the Snapdragon MDP and how to purchase at www.bsquare.com.)"
     
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