why has sprint left its' biggest 4g markets out in the cold?

[Zameus]

I would think that they would roll out in less dense areas to start in order to test. Larger more dense markets would put a strain on a network that is up and coming. Once they get the kinks worked out, the dense markets will roll out. I dont think it will be much longer-- (speculating) end of this year and Q1 2011 is when more of the big markets will start getting 4G.

What he saide ^^^

 

[NeoteriX]

i live 25 min from NYC in a heavily populated area.
why has sprint catered to tiny markets a fraction of the size of nyc first???
seems odd to me and was hoping for some insight.
i'm dying to tether with my evo and possibly ditch cable internet....

Before Sprint bought a commanding share of Clear, it was just Clear rolling out 4G.

Apparently in certain large markets (Maryland and Philly) the Clear roll out was unimpressive to Sprint; Clear's strategy was apparently to flip the switch first, and then fill in the coverage holes later. The problem was that people's first impressions were then tainted by the poor launch.

Now that Sprint's at the helm, they recognize that they have to nail the launch at the beginning, so perhaps this is why they are taking so long. They want to make sure it's as good as it can be from the start.

(the source of this information was an interview with a Sprint exec, although I don't have the link handy)

 

[stevehy]

I

 

[fourgee]

Merced & Visalia, CA? WTF??!! Clearly they're rolling out in tiny markets were NOBODY has a 4G device of any kind so they can work out the bugs. However... I've caught 4G signal on my Sprint Card several times throughout the SF Bay Area so I know they're building.
I don't have a 4G subscription for my card so I couldn't try it. EVO arrives tomorrow & I'm curious to see if the 4G signal is accessible.

 

[Deleted User]

I would love to see my Evo run on 4G, but its doing great without it.

Hook yourself in to a wifi connection, and you'll have the same experience. There's nothing to 4G beyond simply faster network access.

 

[Deleted User]

Merced & Visalia, CA? WTF??!! Clearly they're rolling out in tiny markets were NOBODY has a 4G device of any kind so they can work out the bugs. However... I've caught 4G signal on my Sprint Card several times throughout the SF Bay Area so I know they're building.
I don't have a 4G subscription for my card so I couldn't try it. EVO arrives tomorrow & I'm curious to see if the 4G signal is accessible.

If you have a 4G card, you have a 4G subscription.. or you will have one if you call them up and ask them to apply it to your card.

There is one catch, however. If you have an old truly unlimited 3G plan, you can't mix that with a 4G enabled plan. I went through this with Sprint myself. I opted to keep the unlimited 3G plan for my data card, and tether the EVO the odd times I want/need 4G because where I use my card most (to the tune of almost 10GB/month), the 4G signal is too weak.

 

[sjjones]

i also agree and am enjoying my evo
just annoyed that all the farmers and cattlehands got 4g before nyc area
grrr

New Jersey is no great place, after watching "the Jersey shore" or "new jersey housewives" LOL


Have patients its coming, have 4g in a couple places up here in NNJ, Sprint had to start somewhere, and it makes sence to start small get everything right, then do the the larger areas

 

[fourgee]

If you have a 4G card, you have a 4G subscription.. or you will have one if you call them up and ask them to apply it to your card.

There is one catch, however. If you have an old truly unlimited 3G plan, you can't mix that with a 4G enabled plan. I went through this with Sprint myself. I opted to keep the unlimited 3G plan for my data card, and tether the EVO the odd times I want/need 4G because where I use my card most (to the tune of almost 10GB/month), the 4G signal is too weak.

Hopefully I'll be able to cancel my data card once I get the EVO. My mobile internet needs are pretty minimal and I think I'll get by using the EVO for most needs. If I really need my Lap Top I can stop by a McDonalds or Starbucks & jump on the ATT WiFi.
I've been very impressed w/Sprint's network. At my summer home deep on the forest of N.Cal, I've never had high speed internet access. Cell phones barely work there (iPhones don't work at all) but my Sprint card connects to 3G w/2 bars. Browsing is a bit herky-jerky but WAY faster than dial up.

 

[jpshotya]

4g = battery drain.. ill stick with my 3g unless i have constant power source

 

[RiverOfIce]

2. I hear that wimax frequency has an issue penetrating walls / materials. So in NYC.. they will have to be more thick with the signal to make it usable.

Not has bad as you would think.

 

[dan330]

Not has bad as you would think.

ok.. i may not be as up to the tech as u...

but outside.. I get 2-3 bars...
go inside of a 1 story home... no bars.. unless I am next to a window.

 

[IOWA]

ok.. i may not be as up to the tech as u...

but outside.. I get 2-3 bars...
go inside of a 1 story home... no bars.. unless I am next to a window.

It's not WiMax itself, it's the 2500Mhz band it's being broadcasted on. In time, Then will probably dual-cast on a lower frequency as well, for better building penetration.

 

[Babbit]

It's not WiMax itself, it's the 2500Mhz band it's being broadcasted on. In time, Then will probably dual-cast on a lower frequency as well, for better building penetration.

Since our phones can only receive on the 2500Mhz band, it won't matter what other frequencies they broadcast in the future. Unlike GSM phones that had 805 Mhz capability years before any signal in that band, we don't have any "future-proofing" in our phones in terms of 4G radio.

 

[IOWA]

Since our phones can only receive on the 2500Mhz band, it won't matter what other frequencies they broadcast in the future. Unlike GSM phones that had 805 Mhz capability years before any signal in that band, we don't have any "future-proofing" in our phones in terms of 4G radio.

And do you think anyone really plans on keep that phone for longer than 2 years?

 

[RiverOfIce]

It's not WiMax itself, it's the 2500Mhz band it's being broadcasted on. In time, Then will probably dual-cast on a lower frequency as well, for better building penetration.

Do not want to repost, check out the wimax thread.

But to solve the problem really quick.

Evdo (sprints 3g network) works at 1900mhz. Now in most cases the penetration of that signal is good with high coverage.

The 600mhz from 1.9ghz to 2.5ghz is not that much, with a median slope of +-3 decibels per 1 ghz of coverage. Which means in standardize building structures, you are going to get a fade of about -1.5 decibels. The signal strength is measured in decibels, you can get is about -114 decibels the weakest signal(zero bars) to about -39 decibels (5 bars.)

That can increase to 8-16 decibels per 1ghz of spectrum. So at worst case. You are dealing with 4-8 decibels of building fade, which means if wimax was build out like evdo (3g) you would not really see a difference.

Maybe 1 bar, but of course that would require a lot of towers.

 

[IOWA]

Do not want to repost, check out the wimax thread.

But to solve the problem really quick.

Evdo (sprints 3g network) works at 1900mhz. Now in most cases the penetration of that signal is good with high coverage.

The 600mhz from 1.9ghz to 2.5ghz is not that much, with a median slope of +-3 decibels per 1 ghz of coverage. Which means in standardize building structures, you are going to get a fade of about -1.5 decibels. The signal strength is measured in decibels, you can get is about -114 decibels the weakest signal(zero bars) to about -39 decibels (5 bars.)

That can increase to 8-16 decibels per 1ghz of spectrum. So at worst case. You are dealing with 4-8 decibels of building fade, which means if wimax was build out like evdo (3g) you would not really see a difference.

Maybe 1 bar, but of course that would require a lot of towers.

Me thinks your estimations of signal degradation with a bit off there with the 2500mhz spectrum. It DOES make a big difference.

 

[RiverOfIce]

Me thinks your estimations of signal degradation with a bit off there with the 2500mhz spectrum. It DOES make a big difference.

Ok, here is what you do. Get a piece of paper, and start it out;

Dear NASA,
http://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/Propagation/napex19/bldgfading.pdf
http://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/Propagation/napex20/vogel2.pdf
http://www.realwireless.biz/publications/papers/EUcap09-No-1569161199.pdf
http://www.utexas.edu/research/mopro/papercopy/chapter08.pdf (table 8.10, but a good read)
In closing, you are wrong,

Sincerely
IOWA.

(it is a joke)

 

[IOWA]

Ok, here is what you do. Get a piece of paper, and start it out;

Dear NASA,
http://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/Propagation/napex19/bldgfading.pdf
http://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/Propagation/napex20/vogel2.pdf

In closing, you are wrong,

Sincerely
IOWA.

(it is a joke)

Tell that to the people who lose all/most signal when moving indoors.

 

[RiverOfIce]

Tell that to the people who lose all/most signal when moving indoors.

There is a very simple reason for that, tower density. The reason you do not lose power with 3g, is that the tower density is soo high that penetration is not a problem. But with wimax, the tower density is very low (but increasing daily).

If there was as many towers for wimax as there was for 3g, there would not be a problem.

Also if you have wifi in your house, why are you able to go outside with a signal. And wifi is like a fraction of the power of wimax.

Once again tower density.

 

[inflewence]

I get 4G in Philly and parts of NJ. To me though, the Evo is so much faster on 3g then any other phone I ever owned. I'm good and hopefully just when I hit the wall of wanting a faster phone (as it always happen) they will start rolling hard!

 

[Mongoos150]

Last time i checked, theres no farms in Los Angeles

Last time I checked, there's no 4G in LA.

West Hollywood - nope.

Beverly Hills - nope.

Santa Monica - nope.

The Valley - nope.

Hollywood - nope.

Downtown - nope. No that there's anything to do downtown...

 

[IOWA]

There is a very simple reason for that, tower density. The reason you do not lose power with 3g, is that the tower density is soo high that penetration is not a problem. But with wimax, the tower density is very low (but increasing daily).

If there was as many towers for wimax as there was for 3g, there would not be a problem.

Also if you have wifi in your house, why are you able to go outside with a signal. And wifi is like a fraction of the power of wimax.

Once again tower density.

Tower density will change that (quality of signal) regardless of the frequency used. Still doesn't change the fact that once entering a building, people lose signal. And alot of it. If the walls, bricks, and whatever weren't in the way, they wouldn't suffer signal loss. The fact that someone can walk around(outside) their house with 5 full bars, then enter the house and only get 1 bar, regardless of position in the house, says something about the signal traveling through the material in question.

Now keep in mind, the transmitters/receivers used in the EVO are probably a lot weaker than what NASA used, and I don't think we'd be able to use that kind of equipment in a handheld device for quite some time.

 

[RiverOfIce]

Tower density will change that (quality of signal) regardless of the frequency used.

Now keep in mind, the transmitters/receivers used in the EVO are probably a lot weaker than what NASA used, and I don't think we'd be able to use that kind of equipment in a handheld device for quite some time.

I am not going to go all geeky on you.

That is now how radio signals work, they are not a 1 or 0.

Nasa transmitters where actually a little lower then was used by telecommunications, but they are bound by the same rules of the road as cdma. Because it was cdma they where testing, but the power wattage, signal frequencies, and frequencies bandwidth where all the same to be functional as normal cellphone. The goal of the communications was to make a satellite phone that could function on the normal wireless network.

Signal fade does happen, but if you are getting 4 bars outside, which is like -70 decibels and it goes to 1 bar which is like -85 decibels, you have hit the worst case.

Bottom line, signal degradation from 1900 to 2500 is not all that much.

But heck you can do a search on the subject and findout for yourself.

I would start on the difference in transmitting between los and nlos

 

[ThreeDog]

the cell infrastructure in NYC is pants any way and would likely crash monumentally under the strain of 4g. hell it can barely hold it's own with the existing 3g networks.

 

[IOWA]

I am not going to go all geeky on you.

That is now how radio signals work, they are not a 1 or 0.

Nasa transmitters where actually a little lower then was used by telecommunications, but they are bound by the same rules of the road as cdma. Because it was cdma they where testing, but the power wattage, signal frequencies, and frequencies bandwidth where all the same to be functional as normal cellphone. The goal of the communications was to make a satellite phone that could function on the normal wireless network.

Signal fade does happen, but if you are getting 4 bars outside, which is like -70 decibels and it goes to 1 bar which is like -85 decibels, you have hit the worst case.

Bottom line, signal degradation from 1900 to 2500 is not all that much.

But heck you can do a search on the subject and findout for yourself.

I would start on the difference in transmitting between los and nlos

I already know the difference between los and nlos. Go geeky all you like. The fact that people in the REAL world, are receiving these REAL WORLD results, means something, more so than any "lab tests". We all know the huge differences between lab controlled environments and real world scenarios...

And the fact that even Clear@home modems, usb sticks, and the EVO all suffer similar (but ranging) huge amounts of degradation, there's simply variable unaccounted for, be it the transmitters Sprint's using, the receiver chips, the antennae, or the spectrum being used. More than likely, it is a combination of all of the above. Until they start sticking high gain antennae in the receiving units, all these problems will exist, which otherwise would not and do not exist with lower spectrum, using the same or similar hardware.