Right to bear arms vs. right to fire

[FJR1300]

Zarabozo worked for private investigation and security companies and had a concealed handgun permit. Four days before chartering the Joe Cool, Zarabozo was accepted as an applicant to become a Miami-Dade police officer.

Better outlaw cops too then eh?

This is the type of action that anti-concealed carry people worry about happening? How often does this happen?

This not a story about a CWP holder attempting to defend himself and causing the death of an innocent in the process. And you know that is what is being discussed here. A story like this used to castigate gun owners is a staple of the anti-gun media; hype and fear-mongering..."look at how crazy those CWP'ers are! we must ban the carrying of guns!"

The information source's bias and credibility are questionable at best; the Violence Policy Center; an anti-gun lobbyist organization.

But I'll play along for a moment...what is the total number of permit holders over that same period of time as their data is collected?

Also, how many of those cases not ruled self-defense were questionable as to the quality of defense available to the defendant and other factors that have more to do with prosecutors out to make a name for themselves, politics and areas where a stand your ground law and/or castle doctrine might not have been in effect?

Would the older cases be ruled upon differently under the law in the respective States today? In other words, how many charges of murder were due to bad laws on the books at the time?

And lastly, those numbers include suicides which is hardly cause for concern for a citizen out in public.

Either way, the hyping of 402 people killed (including suicides) out of millions of permit holders is making mountains out of a molehill.

 

[batgeek]

dunno why you even try.

 

[OutofDate1980]

....Either way, the hyping of 402 people killed (including suicides) out of millions of permit holders is making mountains out of a molehill.

A bit touchy are we. I was just correcting a premise that in Florida no permit holders were involved in unlawful shootings.

As you know there is no nationwide statistics on permit holders who are involved in crimes. You may have noted the source I cited, cited the sources they relied on. I suspect they are not well funded as they have no major industry funding.

I believe the weapons companies, via their marketing arm NRA are hyping CCW for revenue.

Interesting videos from ABC News that cast doubt that even a trained CCW is useful during a real armed confrontation.

Part 1: Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part One - YouTube
Part 2: Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part Two - YouTube

 

[mike114]

A bit touchy are we. I was just correcting a premise that in Florida no permit holders were involved in unlawful shootings.

As you know there is no nationwide statistics on permit holders who are involved in crimes. You may have noted the source I cited, cited the sources they relied on. I suspect they are not well funded as they have no major industry funding.

I believe the weapons companies, via their marketing arm NRA are hyping CCW for revenue.

Interesting videos from ABC News that cast doubt that even a trained CCW is useful during a real armed confrontation.

I don't really understand the point of that video. As a CHL holder I don't live in a dream world, I live in a world filled with violent people wanting to do harm to others. I carry for mine and my family's protection. There are countless times where an armed citizen has stopped crimes, many times without even having to fire a shot.

Using an example like this where the "citizen" has been set up for failure doesn't prove much. The alternative would be to not allow any CHL's and we could all be sitting ducks instead. I'd rather have a fighting chance instead of just having to rely on ducking behind something and hoping.

No one ever said the CHL holders will always save the day, but again this video really proves nothing.

I also don't understand why people have a problem with law abiding citizens carrying firearms. It hasn't caused any increase in gun crimes. In fact, as more people have been armed, violent crime rates have fallen.

 

[batgeek]

In fact, as more people have been armed, violent crime rates have fallen.

correlation does not imply causation. it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove that more firearms in citizens hands has led to lower crime rates.

 

[OutofDate1980]

I don't really understand the point of that video. As a CHL holder I don't live in a dream world, I live in a world filled with violent people wanting to do harm to others. I carry for mine and my family's protection. There are countless times where an armed citizen has stopped crimes, many times without even having to fire a shot.

Using an example like this where the "citizen" has been set up for failure doesn't prove much. The alternative would be to not allow any CHL's and we could all be sitting ducks instead. I'd rather have a fighting chance instead of just having to rely on ducking behind something and hoping.

No one ever said the CHL holders will always save the day, but again this video really proves nothing.

I also don't understand why people have a problem with law abiding citizens carrying firearms. It hasn't caused any increase in gun crimes. In fact, as more people have been armed, violent crime rates have fallen.

"I live in a world filled with violent people wanting to do harm to others." Sounds like a paranoid world.

"Using an example like this where the "citizen" has been set up for failure..." How so ?

"...this video really proves nothing." Except the CHL will get killed not the "bad guy" and/or harm an innocent.

"In fact, as more people have been armed, violent crime rates have fallen." No cause and effect. I haven't seen any peer reviewed statistical studies that support this "fact".

It appears you believe LE officials are not being truthful in this demonstration. Could be a valid point. Would you care to prove that point ?

 

[batgeek]

not paranoid. realistic.

set up for failure. easy...the assailant KNOWS there is someone in there with a firearm. when concealed carrying, i sure as hell don't wear a long baggy t-shirt. when CCWing, i sure as hell am not wearing stupid Mechanix gloves. the CCWer is ALWAYS in the same seat(and happens to be THE WORST seat for someone that has any situational awareness as a CCWer should have). the most experienced shooter is the assailant. want more?

LE generally does not wish for private citizens to be armed. i can see them in cahoots with the "news" source in allowing this skewed "demonstration" to be filmed and aired, just to further that agenda.

 

[FJR1300]

A bit touchy are we. I was just correcting a premise that in Florida no permit holders were involved in unlawful shootings.

Not touchy at all, I simply responded to claims that concealed carry is dangerous enough to warrant all of the fear and hysteria, present here and in the media. I promise that I'm not rabidly banging away at my keyboard with my blood pressure headed for the stratosphere.

These types of debates tend to get heated and the written word is without the benefit of tone of voice and body language, so much is lost in the translation. I'm not even naive enough to think that I'll change anyone's mind that isn't open to change and objective observation and reasoning.

Although it is mildly annoying when someone responds to a minor point of a post and ignores the tougher questions. It could be perceived as not having an answer or just not being bothered enough to do the research necessary to try and refute a point. Or it might just be that no-one is really reading my long winded posts in this twitter based world

I enjoy healthy and civil debate, keeps the mind sharp and forces me to prove my own viewpoints to myself. Sometimes I even change my mind after seeing new information.

If I started seeing permit holders committing murder by ever increasing numbers, I'd have to stop and reevaluate my own views. If we suddenly see a tenfold increase in these cases, I'd wonder what the hell was going on and want to find ways to reverse the trend. If there is a reasonable fear, I'll be just as concerned as the next guy...I've got family to worry about too.

You weren't correcting that premise as I didn't present that premise, I've said more than once that the numbers are so low that they do not represent a significant threat to the general public.

You provided an outlandish example that should have been more alarming due to the fact that the shooter was accepted to become a police officer. If people like that can routinely attain a position of such considerable power we should all be very afraid. The fact that he held a CWP is only of significance if you're trying to paint the picture of permit holders being ruthless pre-meditated murderers.

There are approximately 6 million permit holders nationally, using the VPC's figure of 402 wrongful deaths (even allowing for the suicides) we're looking at an obviously very low number and equated as a percentage it is .00007% It's a hell of a lot safer than many daily activities such as crossing the street or driving.

The videos you provided are another example of clear bias and designed to show failure. It is neither scientific nor objective.

The facts remain that every day, millions of permit holders walk, work and drive among the unarmed without killing them. It does happen sometimes, in very small numbers. LEOs sometimes kill innocent people, also in very small numbers thankfully. Criminals arm themselves illegally and murder, rape and injure innocents every single day in significantly larger numbers.

Since you like videos, here's a real life scenario...a 72 year old man that made a woman's dream of staying alive come true:

 

[FJR1300]

dunno why you even try.

Well I realize that some posters just take the opposite side of the argument for entertainment purposes, and that's okay...I used to do it myself when I was younger.

I don't mind, I like the mental exercise and hey, who knows maybe one person will read this thread and gain something positive from it

 

[A.Nonymous]

I don't really understand the point of that video. As a CHL holder I don't live in a dream world, I live in a world filled with violent people wanting to do harm to others. I carry for mine and my family's protection. There are countless times where an armed citizen has stopped crimes, many times without even having to fire a shot.

I fear the world you live in it. If I lived in it, I would move. I don't live in that world. I spend 5 years as a 911 dispatcher. I've seen all the crime that goes on in my city and I've seen all the crime that is alleged to go on that doesn't really happen. The streets are not prowled by violent people looking for unarmed victims. That's just not reality in the vast majority of the US. I don't feel that we live in a world that is so dangerous and so violent that the only solution is an armed populace.

I also don't understand why people have a problem with law abiding citizens carrying firearms. It hasn't caused any increase in gun crimes. In fact, as more people have been armed, violent crime rates have fallen.

My problem is that, IMO, the vast majority of those people aren't trained. In a tense situation, they over react, react poorly or inappropriately and people get hurt or injured. I've seen a guy with a CCW permit drive through a residential neighborhood firing at a guy he saw breaking into a house. Now, the guy was definitely a burglar. No question about it. But is firing a gun from a moving vehicle in a residential neighborhood safe? Of course not. Yet this guy had been through a state mandated training class. I remember another case involving a guy who was a rent-a-cop hired by a particular subdivision. He was out on foot patrol and saw a peeping tom. He called 911 and then the peeping tom saw him and ran. The rent-a-cop chased him and proceeded to fire several "warning shots" over the guys head. Again, he's in a residential neighborhood firing a weapon. Is this a good idea? No. It's not. We all agree on that I would think. But the guy was in a stressful situation, his adrenaline is running high, he panics and acts in an ill-advised manner. Again, he's been through a state mandated training course for a CCW permit.

So, that's my problem. People aren't highly trained. They're not prepared. You've just got concealed weapons in the hands of people who are just as likely to shoot a bystander as they are to shoot a bad guy because in stressful situations, they panic.

LE generally does not wish for private citizens to be armed.

This made me lol just because a few pages back, someone argued vehemently that the opposite was true.

 

[batgeek]

I fear the world you live in it. If I lived in it, I would move. I don't live in that world.

that is this world. you currently live in it. you just refuse to accept it.

I don't feel that we live in a world that is so dangerous and so violent that the only solution is an armed populace.

ask the Columbine kids. ask the Virgina Tech kids. ask the soldiers at Ft Hood. ask the parishoners at Wedgewood Baptist. etc, etc, etc...

these are supposed to be some of the safest places for people to be. schools, no gun zone. a military base, no gun zone. a church, no gun zone.

you want more? we can go from west coast to east coast and just start listing them if you want...

 

[batgeek]

who knows maybe one person will read this thread and gain something positive from it

unlikely. antis don't tend to listen to facts, reason, or statistics.

what changes their mind is when that bad thing that they say will never happen to them, happens to them or someone close to them.

such is life.

it's alot like cancer(which statistically is more likely to happen to one of us than being in a active shooter situation). "i'm not gonna get cancer." then bam...they get it. or their relative gets it. next thing you know they are at the doctor. they quit smoking. they start putting pink ribbons everywhere...

 

[A.Nonymous]

that is this world. you currently live in it. you just refuse to accept it.

I spent 5 years in a 911 dispatch center. I did not see stranger on stranger violent crime running rampant.

ask the Columbine kids. ask the Virgina Tech kids. ask the soldiers at Ft Hood. ask the parishoners at Wedgewood Baptist. etc, etc, etc...

these are supposed to be some of the safest places for people to be. schools, no gun zone. a military base, no gun zone. a church, no gun zone.

you want more? we can go from west coast to east coast and just start listing them if you want...

All statistical outliers. Kids at every public school in my town (and there are many of them) went to school every day last year and so far every day this year without being shot at. Same can be said for schools across the country. Soldiers are already armed. Not sure what the point is. People go to church every single Sunday without incident. All of the examples you cited are statistical outliers. Nothing more.

 

[batgeek]

statistical outliers or not. THEY HAPPENED. that you can not deny.

you don't get to pick where and when the bad stuff happens. they happen. just hope you aren't there when they happen.

your time as at a 911 dispatch center could just be a statistical(geographical) outlier also. there are other places that recieve stranger on stranger violence calls multiple times on one shift. i have a gaming buddy that used to dispatch in Huntington Beach CA...want to ask him how many times he got calls like that on an 8 hour shift?

but whatever...sheeple will be sheeple.

i'm done here. i'll just continue to take care of myself and my own. you know better for yourself than i do.

 

[FJR1300]

I spent 5 years in a 911 dispatch center. I did not see stranger on stranger violent crime running rampant.



All statistical outliers. Kids at every public school in my town (and there are many of them) went to school every day last year and so far every day this year without being shot at. Same can be said for schools across the country. Soldiers are already armed. Not sure what the point is. People go to church every single Sunday without incident. All of the examples you cited are statistical outliers. Nothing more.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too; if violent stranger on stranger crime is not rampant (which it is, but I'll get back to that later) and the aforementioned cases are statistical outliers. Then why are you worried about permit holders? Just statistical outliers right? You mention over and over about your friends that run around drawing their weapons (I'd find new friends btw) yet crime is not rampant in your town? Dangerous acts by permit holders can't be very common, there's hardly any crime in the country at all according to your statements. You've just completely contradicted yourself.

Fwiw, soldiers typically aren't armed on base unless they're military police. Seems the brass doesn't trust their own to carry weapons unless they're training or going to battle. That's slightly facetious of me, not all soldiers are combat soldiers, they might be a cook or supply specialist...no need for them to haul a weapon around on base stateside.

I don't suppose you're going to supply me with any stats to back up your claims, as I did for you, are you?

Back to the claim that crime is not prevalent in the US;

The only thing that comes to mind to hear anyone say that, is that they live somewhere where there isn't much crime and naturally apply their personal experience to the rest of the country. Is this true of your situation? Where do you live?

I'd like to propose a little experiment: For a week you read the local online newspaper where I live and pay particular attention to the public safety articles or just search their archives for violent crime. And I'll do the same with the local online newspaper where you live and that way maybe we'll understand a little better where each of us is coming from.

Deal?

 

[FJR1300]

unlikely. antis don't tend to listen to facts, reason, or statistics.

what changes their mind is when that bad thing that they say will never happen to them, happens to them or someone close to them.

such is life.

it's alot like cancer(which statistically is more likely to happen to one of us than being in a active shooter situation). "i'm not gonna get cancer." then bam...they get it. or their relative gets it. next thing you know they are at the doctor. they quit smoking. they start putting pink ribbons everywhere...

That may be true, but in order to even hope to get our message across we've got to try a less aggressive approach. Insinuating that people are stupid or idiotic and using labels generally makes people dig their heels in even harder and shove their fingers firmly in their ears.

Its hard not to lose patience and let the debate deteriorate, especially online. But sometimes we pro-gunners are our own worst enemy when it comes to negative publicity. Not trying to berate you at all, hell I might have made a comment or three in this thread that might have been insulting.

 

[batgeek]

Insinuating that people are stupid or idiotic and using labels generally makes people dig their heels in even harder and shove their fingers firmly in their ears.

thus reinforcing the fact that they are idiots.

 

[ChiweN]

My employer takes the same stance on weapons. I do have a carry license, as does my wife, here in Michigan.

Though clearly breaking the rules, I still carry my firearm at work. I feel that the risk of losing my life, or watching the lives of my coworkers be put in jeopardy from some dumb ass out for vengeance, or other malicious reasoning, far outweighs the potential of losing my job.

I can still be of use without a job. I do my family no good buried on the mud.

 

[Steven58]

thus reinforcing the fact that they are idiots.

I'm gonna pipe in here and say to tone it down a tad, not because of this per se, but because the temperature seems to be rising a bit.. Call this a preventative measure?

Your humble servant,
Steven

 

[batgeek]

that was not aimed at any one individual. it was used in a general context.

 

[Steven58]

that was not aimed at any one individual. it was used in a general context.

I know.. that's why I made a general-ish comment.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Soldiers are already armed. Not sure what the point is.

Not on base...the only soldiers with weapons on base are MP's and maybe a few on the range training.

Military bases are the strictest gun free zones of them all (that was the point by the way)...weapons are checked out of the armory for range practice but you DO NOT just go wandering around base with a weapon

 

[TheRocketmac]

Yes...I'm a certified gun nut...new to smart phones...but can hold my own with a rifle or a pistol, LOL.

I'll shut up now...

You seem " familiar"...

To add my $0.02, I won't use lethal force for someone stealing my TV, but I will if they enter my home uninvited/force their way in.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Batgeek mentioned "what changes minds"...

What would change a lot of minds is if these people would visit a few countries where Freedom isn't considered a right...live there a few months or years.

You'll come back here with a whole new perspective...

 

[Ridgerunner665]

You seem " familiar"...

To add my $0.02, I won't use lethal force for someone stealing my TV, but I will if they enter my home uninvited/force their way in.

LOL...too many forums...for too many years I guess. Same name on all of them...

I Googled my username once and was amazed at what it returned.