free health care

[Bob Maxey]

And I think this brings us to the fundamental difference between the right and the left. Most people on the right not only think they should have no obligation to help those in bad situations, but that the mere suggestion is offensive. It's every person for themselves, take what you can get and screw you, you deserve whatever happens if you can't do the same. The rest of us, do not feel that way.

Try reading up on conservatism before you made silly comments. Clearly, you do not understand.

 

[lightsleeper23]

Try reading up on conservatism before you made silly comments. Clearly, you do not understand.

Oh ok. I understand that this new breed of tea party conservatives has little in common with the old republican party. It's certainly no longer the party of Lincoln. The new face of the party is all ignorance and intolerance. "Legitimate rape" ring a bell? A pregnancy from rape is something "god intended" ring a bell? The last batch of republican presidential candidates ranged from ignorant jesus freaks, to sleazy liars.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Life is not fair. I'm sorry, but it's not. Chelsea Clinton graduated from Stanford and her first job was with a NYC law firm where she earned over $100k a year. Now, by all accounts she is a very smart young lady. But how many graduates make that kind of money straight out of college and how much of that is because of who her dad is? You know as well as I do that it was largely because of who her dad is. Do I begrudge her for that? No. That's life. The President's kids will have more opportunities because of who their parents are. That principle trickles down throughout society. Children have always suffered/benefitted from their parents actions. That is life. I can empathize, but I feel no obligation to try to take care of every single child who is in a bad situation because of their parents mistakes. That is tilting a windmills IMO.

So we should leave kids simply die on the side of the road of leukaemia? Make them pay for their own education?

I am sorry, but this thinking was on the way out under Tory governments in the 1800s.

I really wonder how some people lack the ability to see things from other's points of view.

 

[ElasticNinja]

I know, you still couldn't care less about them, just saying. And I think this brings us to the fundamental difference between the right and the left. Most people on the right not only think they should have no obligation to help those in bad situations, but that the mere suggestion is offensive. It's every person for themselves, take what you can get and screw you, you deserve whatever happens if you can't do the same. The rest of us, do not feel that way.

I think it is a shame that the American right gives the right across the world such a bad name.

 

[sntaylor]

How old were you at this point?

Not sure exactly what point you are referring to so will give a break down of my last few years....

04/06 having left school I did an apprenticeship for two years with Scottish rugby/local club coaching in schools paid at a very lowly

 

[Bob Maxey]

Please tell me why someone who works their whole life and diligently saves has a responsibility to bail out someone who saved nothing. How is a society where the responsible people carry the burden for the irresponsible ones a good society?

Welfare works! So do most social programs. They all work until they are abused, then they grow into ever larger programs that never end. What is needed is to continue to fund these various programs but make sure they are not abused.

Those that desperately need help should get it for a time, while helping them make a better life and get off assistance. This was the original idea I believe.

This is part of what makes us a great country. We are willing to fund the less fortunate among us. What ticks people off is the abuse.

I know people who consider food stamps part of their income and several complain about how crappy this state is. They want it for free and damn anyone who suggests they contribute. The LDS Church is very good when it comes to their welfare programs and their employment services--open to anyone--are second to none.

I know of people who have been on these programs for decades and in some cases, it institutionalized to such a point, many people never know any life past food stamps and "free" money.

Many have been getting food assistance for a long time. They do not work hard or care as long as there is an EBT balance, free coffee and donuts in the AM and a bed.

Here in Utah, the EBT (Food Stamps) card is freely issued to just about anyone and you no longer have to talk to someone from the Food Stamp program. Money is now automatically added each month and everything is handled online.

Once you apply, they give you a card. Some stores have checkout stations and you do not suffer the shame of the Food Stamp Card. Just load up on unhealthy food, scan your items, run your card and you are done.

No more shame of paper food stamps like in the old days.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Life is not fair. I'm sorry, but it's not. Chelsea Clinton graduated from Stanford and her first job was with a NYC law firm where she earned over $100k a year. Now, by all accounts she is a very smart young lady. But how many graduates make that kind of money straight out of college and how much of that is because of who her dad is? You know as well as I do that it was largely because of who her dad is. Do I begrudge her for that? No. That's life. The President's kids will have more opportunities because of who their parents are. That principle trickles down throughout society. Children have always suffered/benefitted from their parents actions. That is life. I can empathize, but I feel no obligation to try to take care of every single child who is in a bad situation because of their parents mistakes. That is tilting a windmills IMO.

Spot on. She landed the job SPECIFICALLY because of who her father is. Obama's kids will suffer a similar fate. They are set for life even if they are stupid kids.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts if one of Obama's kids pitched a book to some publisher, the advance would be huge. People would buy this likely terrible book and the "author" would be praised for a great book. All that happened is the presidents kid penned a book and everyone else in the food chain sees opportunities to bank some serious coin.

I would hire them because it would help my bottom line.

That said, remember Billy Carter? He did not do so good as I recall. Billy Beer was a bust and Billy boy was quite a sideshow act if any of you remember this fool.

This has always been the case. From the presidents offspring to nepotism that often results in a a stupid kid being hired because his daddy owns the company.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Oh ok. I understand that this new breed of tea party conservatives has little in common with the old republican party. It's certainly no longer the party of Lincoln. The new face of the party is all ignorance and intolerance. "Legitimate rape" ring a bell? A pregnancy from rape is something "god intended" ring a bell? The last batch of republican presidential candidates ranged from ignorant jesus freaks, to sleazy liars.

To be fair, those nutjobs are no more indicative of the mainstream Republican party than the left wing nutjobs are of the Democrats. Both parties have their share of whack-a-doodles.

 

[lightsleeper23]

To be fair, those nutjobs are no more indicative of the mainstream Republican party than the left wing nutjobs are of the Democrats. Both parties have their share of whack-a-doodles.

Yes, but those are the ones in power in government right now. I know in the last election some of the nut jobs lost their seats, but not all. The tea party movement, as in voters, still have a lot of power. The reasonable Republicans that are left in congress are afraid to vote reasonably for fear of getting "primaried" in their district.

And Bob, you're so uninformed it's a joke. You praise the mormon church like it's the best thing to ever happen to this state. It's a plague. The church's number one mission is to push their religion on as many people as possible, and shun those that won't join. I mean, door to door preaching? Who does that? Families cutting out family members and turning them into the black sheep if they leave the church. It's absurd. We might actually have laws that put us into the 21st century, and be a place people wanted to visit more, if they didn't force their influence on government so much. Oh, and you DO have to be a church member to get employment services. And where do you get second to none? What are you comparing it to? It's a single location, inside another larger building downtown. Just because you're a member and can't see past the church to how it looks to others, doesn't mean it's the greatest thing ever.

And you still have to talk to a living person to get food stamps too. And you have to recertify every 6 months. I've worked for Workforce Services, you're wrong. Just because they do more online than in an office doesn't mean anything. It's called modern times. They are strict. If you start making income, your benefits get cut down or cut off entirely, depending on if you're working full time or not. Is it possible to outright scam the system, I'm sure, and theyre always working on ways to catch them. But that doesn't mean they just freely give them to anyone and everyone with no questions asked, on a permanent basis.

And why should a person have to feel shame, more than they already do, if they can't afford to feed their families for a time? Why should they have to suffer public humiliation in the store just to pick up a few things? And you're comment about junk food is offensive as well. Like all poor people eat nothing but junk? No, they're people, and like everyone else some will buy junk and some will buy healthy.

 

[ElasticNinja]

To be fair, those nutjobs are no more indicative of the mainstream Republican party than the left wing nutjobs are of the Democrats. Both parties have their share of whack-a-doodles.

Please, stop with this fallacy.

You don't even know what a left wing nutjob is. I wish you could have lived next to the iron curtain, and see people vote for (granted, Euro-) Communist parties.

 

[rootbrain]

So you have a low paying job, or lose it, can't afford insurance, trip up over a kerb and seriously injure yourself, lengthy time in hospital, massive bills.... even if you have insurance the excess(deductible) is so high you can't afford it anyway, come out hospital with a crippling debt to repay, which I imagine affects credit ratings, when you do get a new job, or if you already had one but were on the bread line already.....

Vs

Same scenario, you get treatment come out carry on with your life!

Don't get me wrong, our taxes are higher, petrol prices for a start are way higher(that at least encourages us to get better mpg in our cars) we essentially have a prepaid system, but everyone is covered..... if anyone on this forum came over, they would receive the same treatment as me, with NO added costs!

Not that way at all. I have a friend that just had heart surgery. Has no insurance, imagine the cost. Sure they will send him a bill, but they knew he was low paid, uninsured yet still the surgery was done. We have medicade (for those that qualify) for low income uninsured folks to handle these types of emergencies. Yeh, they can't go in for every hang nail they get like us insured folks, and have to go to Walgreens or RiteAid to get their $25 flu shots every couple of years.

You NHS is another social program that your government provides. It helps you forget you can't own a shotgun.

 

[sntaylor]

Not that way at all. I have a friend that just had heart surgery. Has no insurance, imagine the cost. Sure they will send him a bill, but they knew he was low paid, uninsured yet still the surgery was done. We have medicade (for those that qualify) for low income uninsured folks to handle these types of emergencies. Yeh, they can't go in for every hang nail they get like us insured folks, and have to go to Walgreens or RiteAid to get their $25 flu shots every couple of years.

You NHS is another social program that your government provides. It helps you forget you can't own a shotgun.

The first part is brilliant that there are fall backs, what is the procedure for follow up medication and any further treatments that may be required? How does this kind of aid, effect your insurance? the second part though.....

Is there anything wrong with social programs? And we can own shotguns, its handguns that are banned!

 

[Gmash]

Sure they will send him a bill, yet the surgery was done.
Then comes the aggressive collection agencies harassing.
Next comes bankruptcy court.
Just a minor inconvenience.

 

[chrlswltrs]

Is there anything wrong with social programs?

I think this sums it up nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5tqH7UrzOw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

BTW, the woman doing the interviews of these pathetic moochers is Nancy Pelosi's daughter.

This is normal in America and why welfare and other "social programs" are destroying this country.

 

[jhtalisman]

I think this sums it up nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5tqH7UrzOw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

BTW, the woman doing the interviews of these pathetic moochers is Nancy Pelosi's daughter.

This is normal in America and why welfare and other "social programs" are destroying this country.

This is not "normal". That was a video with select handpicked soundbites used to get a reaction. However, it is those people abusing the system that are ruining it for the ones who do need it for the intended purposes.

 

[Bob Maxey]

And Bob, you're so uninformed it's a joke. You praise the mormon church like it's the best thing to ever happen to this state. It's a plague. The church's number one mission is to push their religion on as many people as possible, and shun those that won't join. I mean, door to door preaching? Who does that? Families cutting out family members and turning them into the black sheep if they leave the church. It's absurd. We might actually have laws that put us into the 21st century, and be a place people wanted to visit more, if they didn't force their influence on government so much. Oh, and you DO have to be a church member to get employment services. And where do you get second to none? What are you comparing it to? It's a single location, inside another larger building downtown. Just because you're a member and can't see past the church to how it looks to others, doesn't mean it's the greatest thing ever.

And you still have to talk to a living person to get food stamps too. And you have to recertify every 6 months. I've worked for Workforce Services, you're wrong. Just because they do more online than in an office doesn't mean anything. It's called modern times. They are strict. If you start making income, your benefits get cut down or cut off entirely, depending on if you're working full time or not. Is it possible to outright scam the system, I'm sure, and theyre always working on ways to catch them. But that doesn't mean they just freely give them to anyone and everyone with no questions asked, on a permanent basis.

And why should a person have to feel shame, more than they already do, if they can't afford to feed their families for a time? Why should they have to suffer public humiliation in the store just to pick up a few things? And you're comment about junk food is offensive as well. Like all poor people eat nothing but junk? No, they're people, and like everyone else some will buy junk and some will buy healthy.

You should feel shame to some extent because you wanted something better and you failed. Nothing wrong with feeling shame, either. It is one of those things that makes (some) people down on their luck strive for something better. You feel bad so you want to change. This is a good thing, this going from shame to pride.

Most reasonable people are ashamed to be in need. Many cretins, however, simply want free crap regardless. These are the same people that smoke the cigarette butts they pick up from the sidewalk, sell their blood and eat from trash cans.

You simply hate the LDS Church and that colors your comments. Clearly, you do not understand them, just hate them like so many other Utah folks that do not know the Church. I have seen it before. You are one of those folks that simply thinks the Church is evil, period. I have worked with the Church so I know what I am talking about.

I do think they sometimes throw their weight around and because of who they are and it can sometimes be impossible to fight them. I certainly do not think they are perfect and I am not a member. Some things they do truly piss me off as well. They do cause some problems for some people and some members are truly deplorable people.

You clearly do not currently work for DWS or understand just how much the system is abused in this country. This is abundantly clear. I know for a fact that this is how it works:

1- Visit the web site and complete the online form. E-sign it and tell them if you have an EBT card. If you do, you are set. If not, they send you one. The only other contact you have to make is via telephone. You must authorize the card and select a PIN number. No human contact at all.

Before the recent change, you had to call DWS and talk to a live person. This person would ask about your bank, if you had a job, your rent costs and utilities; not to mention, where you derive income from to pay your rent. You told them about your assets. If you get help from friends or family, they had to contact the DWS and confirm that they help you. If you had too much income, your monthly allotment was lower and it changed as your income changed month to month. Next month, you had to do the interview thing all over again.

2- You will receive a letter telling you that you no longer have to call for an interview. Before the change, your letter told you who and when to call. Now, every month the funds are automatically added to your card. Again, you no longer need to go through the interview process with a live human. This is clearly stated on the documents you receive via return mail. Applying is done online and funds are added every month. No human contact required.

This is simply how it works now and because you do not know this, it is clear you are not currently a DWS employee. However, to be fair, you said you "worked" not currently work for DWS. Perhaps you once were an employee, so I'll forgive you for not knowing the new way things are done. Trust me, things have changed at DWS.

BTW, I believe if you also get financial help (monthly cash) it takes less effort to qualify. The funds--available via an ATM--are put on your EBT card as well. The money helps people that need smokes, booze or laundry soap. The EBT card will not allow you to purchase such items, but that matters not one bit. Just visit the ATM and take out a pile of cash you do not repay.

Not sure about the financial help part except my guess is it takes less to qualify these days and everything is done online or automatically as well.

So there you go. Apply for help and get a free plastic card that lets you get "free" cash from any ATM and "free" food without end, probably. It is a great time to be a societal drain.

One more thing: sure, if you start earning an income your benefits can change. This is how it should be. Don't you get it? Welfare works if it is not abused., Sadly, it is abused and that is why it must be reformed. That will not happen, so it grows larger. It is an evil system that should be torn down and reconsidered.

 

[Bob Maxey]

This is not "normal". That was a video with select handpicked soundbites used to get a reaction. However, it is those people abusing the system that are ruining it for the ones who do need it for the intended purposes.

I think it is fairly fair. Perhaps the lack of white faces in the interviews is telling or even designed. Perhaps the producers want to say welfare recipients are mostly black. Not sure if that is true. Here in Utah, most seem to be white or Spanish with fewer black people.

I do think the interviews say something I have always said. People get use to the cash and they abuse the system. Clearly, most in that line would prefer not to work; clearly, most can work hard labor and most are largely not employable for the most part much past manual work.

Some called it "Obama Cash" and that mindset is a problem when you consider they have the right to vote and if people think they are going to vote to cut benefits, you are a grade A, super qualified loony duck.

This is why the democrats will win next term. Not sure how I could have missed it. I could win. I promise to give people free stuff and after election time, their checks arrive. The left sided press is on my side and therefore, the bad crap I do is never reported. More free stuff, better free stuff and I win my second term. Seem it is easy. Free Stuff=President.

Obama is likely going to make life easier for people with more free crap and which ever Dem runs next time will likely win by adding more free stuff to the pile of free stuff already in place.

 

[lightsleeper23]

You're right Bob, I do hate the church. That does NOT mean I don't understand them. How arrogant of you to say if someone hates something they just must not understand it. You don't think it's possible for someone to understand the church and simply not agree with anything they do? I've spent thirty years entrenched with this church, I understand it fully and I've earned the right to hate it.

Yes I don't currently work for DWS, but I still have friends that do, and I know exactly how they work now. You have to do a telephone interview before you receive benefits. Yes they loads money on a card every month, how is this worse than getting paper in the mail every month? It's just more modern. You have to complete a report online, every 6 months to recertify. Any changes in income, going up, you lose it. If you lie you will get caught and banned from the program in the future. It's not never ending, no questions asked, as you imply. And you don't get Medicaid unless you have a family. Other than certain open enrollment periods, which are few and far between due to budget cuts. Same with cash assistance. A single person does not qualify for this.

Also, unless you're disabled, most people have to be actively participating in their job search program to keep getting food stamps.

And I'm not going to be the one to dictate if, and how much shame a person should feel if they can't feed their family for a time. That's nothing to do with me. I know however most people with a conscience will automatically feel shame, and they do not need further PUBLIC humiliation.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Wouldn't it be great if it always worked like that for everyone, but sadly it doesn't.

Its all very well saying that you just move up and get a better job etc, it took me several years to get a ft job, and I wasn't just limiting myself to the field in which I had qualified (sports coaching, rugby specifically, but qualified in many others too!)

Every job I have worked came my way because I worked hard and my goals were set aside while I concentrated on working for the company. The company was more important. My theory is: work for the company and not yourself. Work hard, become invaluable and the great pay will arrive.

My first job came to me in the 1970s and I was there for many years. This was a photographic job and even today, I could take on any photographic job that could possibly exist. Nothing I cannot o in a black and white lab or behind the viewfinder.

All other jobs required that I start at the bottom--the first fab job I had was sticking parts into PC Boards. I rapidly became one of the best employees the company had. Even today, if you ran a tech company, I could fill every manufacturing position. Once I know what is expected, I require little to no training. Yes, I brag, but I earned that right. Smiley!

Every position/job after that I could not be directly hired to do because I did not have a degree. I worked up, and into these jobs because I bothered to give a crap and learn.

I became a writer because I learned how to write and I joined the Megahertz/USR/3Com/MSL training department because I was known to know everything about the products we built. I would have never, EVER been hired for a training position because they want degrees.

I memorized SKU numbers and things like Process Change Orders. I knew from looking at a product if it required changes.

Supervisors did not care enough to learn their jobs, so I often became an unofficial supervisor. I became the go-to guy and this did not go unnoticed. The company got three dollars returned for every dollar they paid me.

I was never late and I never watched the clock. I worked my way into dB dev because I stayed late to enter data. That lead to fixing databases and eventually, I was the training department's database fella.

I am not uber-brilliant but I know how to learn and apply myself. This is the key to success. Many people do not and that is why they are let go or not hired in the first place.

I saw it every day then; I see it every day, now. People were let go because they did not have a clue; people were not hired because they had no skills despite working in the same position for years at other companies. People are often fired because they cannot do the job or not hired in the first place because they have no skills despite many years in the fab business.

Luck, yes. Skills to back it up, yes. Success, yes.

People looking to grow with a company must learn that they have to add value and they must contribute to the corporate bottom line. Else, they be screwed.

 

[Bob Maxey]

You're right Bob, I do hate the church. That does NOT mean I don't understand them. How arrogant of you to say if someone hates something they just must not understand it. You don't think it's possible for someone to understand the church and simply not agree with anything they do? I've spent thirty years entrenched with this church, I understand it fully and I've earned the right to hate it.

Yes I don't currently work for DWS, but I still have friends that do, and I know exactly how they work now. You have to do a telephone interview before you receive benefits. Yes they loads money on a card every month, how is this worse than getting paper in the mail every month? It's just more modern. You have to complete a report online, every 6 months to recertify. Any changes in income, going up, you lose it. If you lie you will get caught and banned from the program in the future. It's not never ending, no questions asked, as you imply. And you don't get Medicaid unless you have a family. Other than certain open enrollment periods, which are few and far between due to budget cuts. Same with cash assistance. A single person does not qualify for this.

Also, unless you're disabled, most people have to be actively participating in their job search program to keep getting food stamps.

And I'm not going to be the one to dictate if, and how much shame a person should feel if they can't feed their family for a time. That's nothing to do with me. I know however most people with a conscience will automatically feel shame, and they do not need further PUBLIC humiliation.

Well, I most certainly do not agree with the church, either. Lots of things they do that tick me off. Setting that aside, they do far more good than bad. Their welfare and employment programs are tops in my book.

As I said earlier, the program has changed. You might be correct when it comes to a six-month review. But so what? Lying is a bloody good reason to deny benefits. And again, the telephone interviews are no more. This is clearly stated on the paperwork they send you. And for those six months, all you need to do is spend the allotment and you talk to nobody. NO MORE INTERVIEWS! Payments are added monthly, automatically.

And so what if you are asked to find a job. I do not see your point. You seem to think this is wrong, somehow?

I do not know about Medicade so no comment.

I agree. If you need to feed your family, you need to feed them. That said, far too many people take assistance when they should be denied. Many are simply lazy and they abuse the system designed to provide short-term help. This is simply a fact you need to live with and few people that know the system will disagree with me.

 

[lightsleeper23]

Oh my god, no, I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying YOU'RE wrong. It's not as easy as you're making it out to just get food stamps and live off them forever. I have no problem with them making it even harder than it is to scam the system. I hate when I see people doing this. You're just acting like it's as easy as signing up for a mailing list: just sign your name and you're fed for life. That's simply not true. I've known people that really need it and were turned down. One girl I knew had a trust fund from her parent which was temporarily paying her rent and bills, but she had no money for food. They denied her because of the trust, even though she has no access to it until she turns 30. She was just lucky the person in charge of it paid her bills for a few months while she was out of work. She was going to local foodbanks and getting expired food, and bread full of weavils. She couldn't get a food order from the church because she is no longer a member and like I said, they only help each other. I give no credit to a charity who only helps a certain group who hold the same ridiculous religious beliefs. It's absurd. So no, it is not that easy to get food stamps and keep on getting them. They're actually pretty strict. Which I agree with.

Your complaints all seem to come from changes they've made to modernize. Plastic cards, online reviews, etc. This doesn't mean it's less strict. Even back in the day you'd just keep getting paper food stamps between your reviews. Hell if anything the modernization of plastic cards makes it a lot harder for people to sell them for cash. Back in the day, people would take their paper food stamps and sell them on the street for 2 to 1. Now you can't do that unless you know the person well and take them to the store. So the plastic cards have cut down a lot of fraud. You should be happy about that.

 

[ItnStln511]

if you want a gun you pay for it. Why not the same for healthcare?

exactly!

 

[ItnStln511]

all they're doing is passing the buck onto us

Sadly most people don't realize this fact!

It is, after all your employer who did it to you, not the President.

You must have forgotten that the president signed the health care into law. But no one wants to blame him for some reason...

so you were healthy and didnt feel the need to get insurance or a new job with insurance..... then became sick and its your old companies fault? and our responsibility to pay for you?

sounds more like you played the odds, and lost.... now you want a refund

That about sums it up.

 

[ItnStln511]

The problem is that every single one of those proposals (most of which make perfect sense) are opposed by one or both parties.

On top of that all those proposals do is drive the cost of insurance down. Doesn't force anyone to buy it. So people will still not buy insurance even though it's cheap and will still end up going bankrupt over medical bills and will still scream about how unfair it is.

More like those of us who have the insurance will see our costs go up to cover those who aren't paying.

 

[lightsleeper23]

Why shouldn't we blame employers? A healthcare plan is something these people should have already been providing their employees. Like Papa John Schnatter, it would cost him 9¢ per pizza to give his employees healthcare. Instead he fires them and cuts back their hours. This guy is a multi millionaire! He lives in a freaking palace! And he pays his employees shit and won't give them healthcare. All these chains making record profits, and pulling this crap. Raising prices and telling customers to take it out on the wait staff by cutting back their tips! Ludicrous. What we need is a union for the fast food and restaurant industry, those workers are treated like dog meat.