Battery Charging Myths

[ramcharger1979]

It's hardly a remote possibility. Head over to the candlepower forum battery section for plenty of pictures of exploded lithium ion batteries due to cheap chargers.

That being said, not every generic charger is terrible. It's russian roulette. Personally, having seen the destructive power of lithium ion batteries (one quite literally shredded an aluminum flashlight and sent the tailcap through my metal french door when my friend shorted the battery by accident), I'll leave that chance for you to find out.

BTW an easy way for you to tell if your generic charger is working well is to get a $20 digital multimeter from radioshack. Charge up the battery while keeping an eye on the LED. As soon as the LED turns green to indicate the charge, measure and record the voltage. IT should be in the 4.20v area.

Use the battery for a while and then go to recharge it again. This time, leave it on the charger 6 hours after the LED turns green. IF your voltage is higher than the last time you recorded it, your charger is trickle charging longer than it is supposed to and it is dangerous to leave the battery in it for longer than it takes to charge.

Don't the HTC batteries also have build in protection?

 

[sabrewings]

Is it better to charge the phone while it is on or off? Is there a difference?

The only difference is how long it takes.

 

[Sleeve]

What about using different chargers? I have my charger from my LG Dare and it's micro usb too. Can I use that. It says 5V .7 amps. Dinc is 5V 1.0 amps

 

[sabrewings]

What about using different chargers? I have my charger from my LG Dare and it's micro usb too. Can I use that. It says 5V .7 amps. Dinc is 5V 1.0 amps

It'll take longer. The Inc can take in up to a full Amp. Other charges with less current capacity will take longer. Charging off a computer's USB will take twice as long since they're only 0.5A.

 

[bjanow]

It's hardly a remote possibility. Head over to the candlepower forum battery section for plenty of pictures of exploded lithium ion batteries due to cheap chargers.....

I guess my point is that it really doesn't matter that much to me. (certainly not enough to buy an ammeter.) The battery works fine, the phone is ... well incredible, and I have no problems with overheating or anything along those lines. I really just objected to the statement of worrying about all cheap chargers since my experience was counter.

 

[computerpro3]

Don't the HTC batteries also have build in protection?

So did the Macbook Pro batteries. Protection built into lithium ion batteries isn't intended for everyday use - it exists as a last ditch emergency effort to prevent an explosion. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Either way, it generally bricks the battery when it kicks in.

 

[ramcharger1979]

So did the Macbook Pro batteries. Protection built into lithium ion batteries isn't intended for everyday use - it exists as a last ditch emergency effort to prevent an explosion. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Either way, it generally bricks the battery when it kicks in.

That is good info to know. Thanks

 

[crackers8199]

It's hardly a remote possibility. Head over to the candlepower forum battery section for plenty of pictures of exploded lithium ion batteries due to cheap chargers.

That being said, not every generic charger is terrible. It's russian roulette. Personally, having seen the destructive power of lithium ion batteries (one quite literally shredded an aluminum flashlight and sent the tailcap through my metal french door when my friend shorted the battery by accident), I'll leave that chance for you to find out.

BTW an easy way for you to tell if your generic charger is working well is to get a $20 digital multimeter from radioshack. Charge up the battery while keeping an eye on the LED. As soon as the LED turns green to indicate the charge, measure and record the voltage. IT should be in the 4.20v area.

Use the battery for a while and then go to recharge it again. This time, leave it on the charger 6 hours after the LED turns green. IF your voltage is higher than the last time you recorded it, your charger is trickle charging longer than it is supposed to and it is dangerous to leave the battery in it for longer than it takes to charge.

curious, how do i test this with a multimeter?

also, why is the phone picky as to what charger it uses? i have the usb-wall outlets from monoprice, and while they work (and are rated at 1 amp) they take longer to charge than the stock charger. i've also noticed that initially when plugged into it that the phone will say charging via AC, then about halfway thru (maybe not even halfway) it will switch to charging via USB.

 

[computerpro3]

curious, how do i test this with a multimeter?

also, why is the phone picky as to what charger it uses? i have the usb-wall outlets from monoprice, and while they work (and are rated at 1 amp) they take longer to charge than the stock charger. i've also noticed that initially when plugged into it that the phone will say charging via AC, then about halfway thru (maybe not even halfway) it will switch to charging via USB.

Simply set the multimeter to the DC voltage reading and place the leads on the battery contacts.

As to your second question, that sounds like something to do with the USB pinout to me. I believe that is how the phone determines whether it is charging from USB vs. AC adapter. I could be wrong though, I'd have to look at the actual charger to be sure.

 

[sabrewings]

curious, how do i test this with a multimeter?

also, why is the phone picky as to what charger it uses? i have the usb-wall outlets from monoprice, and while they work (and are rated at 1 amp) they take longer to charge than the stock charger. i've also noticed that initially when plugged into it that the phone will say charging via AC, then about halfway thru (maybe not even halfway) it will switch to charging via USB.

If they're older then they probably don't meet the new standard to charge at 1A, which the Incredible requires. The two data pins have to be shorted with a 200Ohm resistance. See this thread:

http://androidforums.com/tips-tricks-incredible/85805-why-not-all-chargers-same.html

 

[Old Member]

The Inc's calibrations don't let it get low enough to hurt Li-Ion/Polymer chemistry. No need to even worry about it. Just use your phone.

No. That is just reclaiming battery power used by the phone since it reached full and went back to battery power (despite still being plugged in). It is not overcharging it.

This is NOT true. I've had 3 batteries (4 including my wife's Incredible). I had my original 1300 mAH that came with my original Incredible bought and received the day before launch day (April 27). Both my wife and I had our phones that day. I bought a 2150 mAh and now I have an Asurion replaced Incredible with a brand new battery. Here is what I know for sure after 4 batteries used with THIS phone:

1. My first Incredible, I didn't allow it to charge before I turned it on and used it. I just used it and then plugged it in and used it and used it more and more. I have NEVER let it go down to 0% remaining. Never. At BEST with proper power management AND seldom using it, I MAY get about 15 hours out of a full charge. The same is said for my wife's battery bought on the same day.

2. I bough a 2150 mAh to try to get more than a full day's charge. This time I thought I'd be smart and not turn the phone on until it was fully charged with a green light. After doing that, the BEST I can get out of that battery with a full charge is about 20-22 hours.

3. I got my replacement from Asurion about a week ago and I have followed the charge fully, drain fully approach. Charge one I got 14 hours out of it. Charge 2 I got 20 hours out of it. Just ended my 3rd charge and I got 28 hours out of it. I don't intend on doing the full charge to 0% charge again, but it seems to me it worked. Granted this is not scientific. Could be that I had 3 bad batteries and I finally got one good one. Who knows for sure. Take it for what it's worth. Oh and . . .

4. These phones DO NOT CHARGE FULLY when the light is green. You can say that by turning it off and back on again simply recharges it back to full again but you are wrong there too. I've sat by and watched and as soon as it turns green unplugged it and plugged it back in immediately only to have a red light again. After doing this 3-5 times with anywhere from 10-30 min between each green light, eventually it is green and stays green. From what I understand HTC is aware of this and has said it is built into the software to keep people from overcharging their phones. When I would get extended battery life out of the 1st 3 batteries, it was when I took the time to plug in until green, unplug, plug back in. Otherwise, my battery cycle was significantly shorter.

 

[sabrewings]

3. I got my replacement from Asurion about a week ago and I have followed the charge fully, drain fully approach. Charge one I got 14 hours out of it. Charge 2 I got 20 hours out of it. Just ended my 3rd charge and I got 28 hours out of it. I don't intend on doing the full charge to 0% charge again, but it seems to me it worked. Granted this is not scientific. Could be that I had 3 bad batteries and I finally got one good one. Who knows for sure. Take it for what it's worth. Oh and . . .

So you're saying that conditioning works? And every expert out there who says Li-Ion does not condition is wrong? That's laughable, at least. All running it from full to bottom does is calibrate the phone to the battery. That's all. The phone is programmed to shut down at 4% system power, and that is constantly calibrating. It can shut down early if the calibration is off and will adjust next time.

The post you quoted where I said the battery doesn't get low enough to be hurt is true. The phone tries to shut off around 3.6v. It has to drop to 3.2v to damage the battery would require a lot more use past the redline where it shuts off to reach.

4. These phones DO NOT CHARGE FULLY when the light is green. You can say that by turning it off and back on again simply recharges it back to full again but you are wrong there too. I've sat by and watched and as soon as it turns green unplugged it and plugged it back in immediately only to have a red light again. After doing this 3-5 times with anywhere from 10-30 min between each green light, eventually it is green and stays green. From what I understand HTC is aware of this and has said it is built into the software to keep people from overcharging their phones. When I would get extended battery life out of the 1st 3 batteries, it was when I took the time to plug in until green, unplug, plug back in. Otherwise, my battery cycle was significantly shorter.

I've done this exact test and my light stays green, whether the phone is on, off, or if it's on first and then turn it off. I've verified this with a coworkers Incredible. I've also verified this with proper testing equipment, so you can take it or leave it.

It's all placebo. Even if what you're saying does happen, those last 30 minutes a battery charges only gives it about 3% or so of its total capacity. That's just how Li-Ion works. The charging current gradually drops to about 10% of what it is when the capacity is at 70%. That last 30% is an inverse exponential curve. Saying it gives you much longer battery life goes against these things we call the "laws of physics".

It only takes a minute to drain the battery enough to require about 20 minutes of recharge depending on what you did, since the final charging happens so slowly.

 

[Old Member]

You've tried debunking it, but now try explaining it. I don't know how or why. Like I said for all I know I've had 3 crappy batteries and one good one. Who knows. What I know is, what I said is the truth. It is the truth for many people on here. Why do you think there is no consensus about battery life and charging here yet. Everyone's experience is different. I've had 4 batteries, 3 I've treated one way, one I've treated another and gotten 2 totally different experiences from. Feel free to believe what you want, I know what's working for me now and thought it was pertinent to let others know my findings as well.

BTW, it may only take a minute to drain enough for 20 minutes of recharging but like I said, I've done it the INSTANT it turns green. Not once, NUMEROUS times. I've done it where you turn the phone off and on leaving the phone plugged in the entire time as well. Regardless of how you do it, or how soon you do it (in my case immediately) it is red after it is green.

 

[sabrewings]

You've tried debunking it, but now try explaining it. I don't know how or why. Like I said for all I know I've had 3 crappy batteries and one good one. Who knows. What I know is, what I said is the truth. It is the truth for many people on here. Why do you think there is no consensus about battery life and charging here yet. Everyone's experience is different. I've had 4 batteries, 3 I've treated one way, one I've treated another and gotten 2 totally different experiences from. Feel free to believe what you want, I know what's working for me now and thought it was pertinent to let others know my findings as well.

BTW, it may only take a minute to drain enough for 20 minutes of recharging but like I said, I've done it the INSTANT it turns green. Not once, NUMEROUS times. I've done it where you turn the phone off and on leaving the phone plugged in the entire time as well. Regardless of how you do it, or how soon you do it (in my case immediately) it is red after it is green.

Do you own a multimeter? I'd be curious to see what the actual voltage is on your battery when it goes green the first time if a quick unplug will restart the cycle. Maybe a lot of Incredibles have flawed voltage readings, which software would not be able to fix.

All I know is what the two Incredibles I have had personal experience with and what the test equipment in front of me has shown. Until someone can show me some hard facts presented by measuring equipment and not their extremely unscientific day to day usage numbers, then that's what I will go by.

 

[bjanow]

Not sure who posted it above but either there is a red/green color blindness or our methods are entirely different. I don't have an ammeter and don't intend to get one. However, and this is as scientific as any electronic device, if you charge the phone, let it turn green, turn it off an plug the charger in again, you will get an additional charge. That is 100% of the time with everyone. Not 99% but all the time. It's like 2+2 =4. A fact.

Another fact, this thread is getting redundant. If there is any new info post it, but please don't rehash the same stuff from months and months ago.

 

[sabrewings]

Not sure who posted it above but either there is a red/green color blindness or our methods are entirely different. I don't have an ammeter and don't intend to get one. However, and this is as scientific as any electronic device, if you charge the phone, let it turn green, turn it off an plug the charger in again, you will get an additional charge. That is 100% of the time with everyone. Not 99% but all the time. It's like 2+2 =4. A fact.

Call it fact if you want, but neither Incredible I used did that if you did it right as the led went green. If you wait even 30 seconds then the phone has been running off battery power that 30 seconds and is enough to restart the charge cycle. Also if you take it off charge when it goes green you do not experience the 5-10% drop that people complain about. This is also fact and repeatable and fits the theory. People have been seeing the same battery life as bump charging with this method and is also why there is now an app on the market to sound off when the battery reaches full.

I invite anyone to prove me wrong with imperical data. Charge your battery with the phone on, as soon as it goes green check the voltage with a multimeter. It will be 4.2v (full). The phone switches to battery power when full and that is the root of the issue.

People love attacking someone saying something different, but until they offer hard evidence its just talk. I work with low-level electronics as a profession. I applied the same scientific approach I would to any equipment I work with. The theory holds. Don't make it into a more complex issue than it really is.

 

[bjanow]

....
I invite anyone to prove me wrong with imperical data. Charge your battery with the phone on, as soon as it goes green check the voltage with a multimeter. It will be 4.2v (full). The phone switches to battery power when full and that is the root of the issue.

Empirical data such as..? However, you do have a point here. If you stand by your phone and wait.. and wait... and wait... until it turns green, then pull it immediately off the charger, you might be correct. But empirically speaking, real world observations, i.e. those that are based on practical experiences, preclude us from doing that in any great amount. (I mean, let's be real here.) That being said, all we need to do is either get an inexpensive charger and additional battery or turn off the phone for the bump charge.

That, to me, is the solution to the root of the issue.

 

[sabrewings]

Empirical data such as..? However, you do have a point here. If you stand by your phone and wait.. and wait... and wait... until it turns green, then pull it immediately off the charger, you might be correct. But empirically speaking, real world observations, i.e. those that are based on practical experiences, preclude us from doing that in any great amount. (I mean, let's be real here.) That being said, all we need to do is either get an inexpensive charger and additional battery or turn off the phone for the bump charge.

That, to me, is the solution to the root of the issue.

Oh, I agree completely. What bothers me is the misinformation that the Inc "doesn't charge fully when on," which isn't true. It does, but it starts discharging again. The more people know the real issue, the more they're able to live with and work around the issue.

Simply bantering "that's wrong, it doesn't charge fully" isn't helping the community.

 

[AJ McKay]

 

[dscribe]

I've actually been doing the "wait for it to turn green and then disconnect" to some degree, and with a relative amount of success. I just keep walking by and checking it every couple minutes once I know it is close to time that it should be reaching full charge. I am able to get a fix on about when it is going to be fully charged by watching the charge percentage on my battery left widget while it is charging. I might not catch it immediately as it turns green but if I get it unplugged before it has had very much time to discharge, I can still walk away with a "good enough" charge on it. I'd say I'm happy enough with the results.

 

[bjanow]

Oh, I agree completely. What bothers me is the misinformation that the Inc "doesn't charge fully when on," which isn't true. It does, but it starts discharging again. The more people know the real issue, the more they're able to live with and work around the issue.

Ok, here's the test I did this morning, tell me if I went wrong according to the "fully charge when on" scenario.
Plugged in at night, desktop clock all night, fully charged within a few hours but stayed plugged in all night, stayed green. Woke up, still green, turned off desktop clock, put phone to sleep, still green. Unplugged for a few minutes, plugged back in, still green. Sounds like a full charge, right?

Turned off the phone completely, not just to sleep but totally off. Plugged back in immediately and the light went orange for about 1/2 hour. Finally green and *now* I have a full charge. Took the battery out, plugged it into my external charger and it stayed green. What's the verdict?

 

[sabrewings]

That's not what my phone does, so I can't explain it to you without it in front of me. After it has been on the charger all night, if I unplug it and plug it back up it goes orange and restores the power drained since it hit 100% in the middle of the night. Takes about 20 minutes. Same thing happens if I just turn it off instead. Doesn't matter which way I do it.

 

[dscribe]

That's not what my phone does, so I can't explain it to you without it in front of me. After it has been on the charger all night, if I unplug it and plug it back up it goes orange and restores the power drained since it hit 100% in the middle of the night. Takes about 20 minutes. Same thing happens if I just turn it off instead. Doesn't matter which way I do it.

ditto.

 

[bjanow]

That's not what my phone does, so I can't explain it to you without it in front of me. After it has been on the charger all night, if I unplug it and plug it back up it goes orange and restores the power drained since it hit 100% in the middle of the night. Takes about 20 minutes. Same thing happens if I just turn it off instead. Doesn't matter which way I do it.

I guess we have different phones. And from various threads over the last few months, a lot of us do. The only way I can bump charge is to turn the phone off or put it in my external. I don't have a problem with that, it works just fine for me. I'm glad you don't have to do that.

 

[Jodiuh]

Used the thing right out of the box. Even killed the battery too. If I listen really close, I can hear it weeping.