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As I mentioned in this thread

http://androidforums.com/motorola-droid-razr/431108-so-what-do-you-think-2.html#post3355847

I suspect we could see a cottage industry grow around the RAZR similar to what we've seen for the iPhone. All some enterprising individual needs to figure out is how to safely open the case of the RAZR. A custom replacement battery pack could then be designed that would be retrofit into the case.

I have serious doubts that Moto created a case that, once closed, could never be opened without serious damage. In terms of the water resistance, most companies provide for this through the use of an o-ring at the opening. Replacing the o-ring might also be required when opening the case. At this point this is really all conjecture anyway.

Once these phones hit the streets we'll know more...
 
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Might need to get used to it, because one of the blog sites reported he was hearing that this was the direction that future Android phones would be going to. I am actually OK with it, as long as I can make it to bedtime to recharge the phone.

I agree as long as the battery lasts a day I am fine with a non removable battery. But with current lte and how it drains the battery so quick I am a little hesitant to adopt it so soon. Guess I will see once it is out and people get some hands on in real world with it.
 
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With all the complaints about internal battery, I cannot remeber the last time I needed to replace a batter in a phone or any other device. Unless you use one hone for more than 3-4 years there is nothing to worry about.

But did they have lte? You cannot compare something to something that is new tech(lte) and clearly put a huge drain on the battery.
 
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The key folks will be the heat. A batterys worst enemy is heat. IF the same 4430 as the Bionic and Droid 3, it is going to get very hot at 1.2ghz. "Water tight" also means (to some degree) air tight, so all that heat will be building in the frame where the battery is and no breathing. Seems the metal frame is probably the heat sync, but with nowhere for the heat to go but in the device- TOASTY.

Given VZW's policy for batteries and batteries being a common point of failure, it seems the design decisions may have up front gains (looks slim & good, so people will buy a lot of them), but the back end will be greatly increased repair costs and ticked off customers.

Seems best to wait a few weeks before picking this up, but most will consider "the iPhone has a fixed battery too", but it is NOT running at and overclocked 1.2ghz. (800mhz, I do believe).

Considering how quickly the Droid 3 can burn through the battery at just 1ghz when playing content that requires a steady 1ghz, I see no way this device will last a day (unless you are lightly using the device and mainly phone function).

They are trying to treat the device like an iPhone (fixed battery), but are throwing more at the battery with the Razr. Even the iPhone 4S starts draining when playing 3D games (but 800mhz rather than 1.2ghz and smaller display). Best to wait a few weeks IMO, since even a 1750 battery seem low.

Added: I expect the market for the usb batteries to pick up with this device. Watch in a few months for VZW to offer them free to people hollering about battery life ;)

Can't possibly be any worse than the thunderbolt battery. I will be waiting and see how it turns out and what the battery is like and if it lives up to what they are saying it will be. Then again they said the bionic had great battery life and we all see that didn't turn out to be the case.
 
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Ughhhh....this is the dreaded Battery zone right here!

I'm a giant power user, on my phone 24/7..Give me a week with a phone and I'll really give an honest take on if it's a....

Great battery...
Decent battery...
Terrible battery...

Those are my 3 choices when giving my grade on battery life!

past notables :

HTC TB- Terrible
DROID Charge- Great
Bionic- Decent

I only have one use for my phone - More!

We shall see with this one, from my early thoughts, I'm gonna side with Rush, heat may be an issue, and we'll have to see if moto did it's homework and is ready for this...I'm a fan of the sealed battery, as there will be no flimsy battery door, and creaks coming from the body of the phone. However, we just have to make sure after 10 minutes of using the phone that it doesn't turn into a Heating pad!

As for battery life, all my peeps can count on some serious reports coming out of the Sean76 camp...lol
 
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I am so hoping this is unwarranted angst. Heat is absolutely the worst enemy, but seriously internal air flow isn't an issue. All these phones use a conductive cooling to the skin, then convective/radiative cooling. I have some faith that Moto has enough design genius left to solve the problem. How they could launch a major product that would simultaneously piss off the entire Bionic crowd AND be a major hardware fail just doesn't compute. Just to put this in perspective, the kevlar will be as thermally conductive as the gorilla glass.

You are correct. Conduction (gaseous and solid) will be the primary heat transfer mode internal to the Razr. To address Rushmore's concern about having a sealed battery/phone making heat even more of an issue, it allows for the opposite. By not worrying about someone cracking the phone open, Motorola could have (and should have) used some form of thermal grease/adhesive, increasing conductive couplings. What would be funny is if that "water resistant coating" they're referring to is just thermal grease with hydrophobic properties.

Radiation heat transfer would be insignificant. The surface is small, often covered by your hands or face, or resting on something. Also since the majority of the phone is black or covered with glass, it'll absorb solar radiation quite readily. I highly doubt Motorola used a surface coating (low alpha) to prevent that. So don't leave the Razr in the sun.

I was intrigued by your last line about the kevlar vs glass. That actually has me worried a little bit. Glass has a thermal conductivity of about 1.3 W/m-K and kevlar is about 0.04 W/m-k. That's really really bad. Those are high thermal insulating materials. That tells me one of two things:

1. The kevlar is VERY thin and for show only (most likely scenario), or
2. The rim of the phone is metal and the primary heat control device.

Although we know there is a steel chassis underneath, which would allow good heat flow, i highly doubt #2 is correct. While I don't pretend to know the maximum power dissipation of the Razr, I'm assuming it's high enough based on people's complaints of the Bionic, that the rim of the phone is hardly enough surface area to keep the phone cool.

The most logical to me would be #1. It's such a huge surface area I don't think they could afford to not utilize it. What I HOPE Motorola did was apply a good (copper?) heat spreader on the inside of the (very thin?) kevlar using a good thermal adhesive/grease on both sides to ensure high thermal coupling between the interior phone components and the exterior kevlar to maximum usable surface area for convective cooling.

Now I'm a little worried. I thought I was going to pre-order it tomorrow but I have no idea if Motorola has good thermal engineers, or if they even used one. Hopefully they spared no expense in designing this phone since it will either make or break them...
 
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I would be very surprised if the Razr has thermal paste inside, simply because the manufacturing would be that much more complicated. Do any of the eye-phones use paste? I don't believe so judging from the tear downs I've seen.

I'd also be surprised if the Kevlar is "just for show", since the phone is so structurally thin. If the kevlar is for show, that would mean all the structural stiffness comes from the gorilla glass--the stainless steel chasis is a marketing gimmick at best for strength. The steel plates they use in these phones are simply too thin, and while an excellent thermal conductor, is a bit flimsy otherwise. Likewise, the sealed battery is part of the structural strength of the phone--the phone can be thinner without beefing up the frame to account for the battery door cutout. That big, solid shell of kevlar is what's providing the rest of the rigidity.
 
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You are correct. Conduction (gaseous and solid) will be the primary heat transfer mode internal to the Razr. To address Rushmore's concern about having a sealed battery/phone making heat even more of an issue, it allows for the opposite. By not worrying about someone cracking the phone open, Motorola could have (and should have) used some form of thermal grease/adhesive, increasing conductive couplings. What would be funny is if that "water resistant coating" they're referring to is just thermal grease with hydrophobic properties.

Radiation heat transfer would be insignificant. The surface is small, often covered by your hands or face, or resting on something. Also since the majority of the phone is black or covered with glass, it'll absorb solar radiation quite readily. I highly doubt Motorola used a surface coating (low alpha) to prevent that. So don't leave the Razr in the sun.

I was intrigued by your last line about the kevlar vs glass. That actually has me worried a little bit. Glass has a thermal conductivity of about 1.3 W/m-K and kevlar is about 0.04 W/m-k. That's really really bad. Those are high thermal insulating materials. That tells me one of two things:

1. The kevlar is VERY thin and for show only (most likely scenario), or
2. The rim of the phone is metal and the primary heat control device.

Although we know there is a steel chassis underneath, which would allow good heat flow, i highly doubt #2 is correct. While I don't pretend to know the maximum power dissipation of the Razr, I'm assuming it's high enough based on people's complaints of the Bionic, that the rim of the phone is hardly enough surface area to keep the phone cool.

The most logical to me would be #1. It's such a huge surface area I don't think they could afford to not utilize it. What I HOPE Motorola did was apply a good (copper?) heat spreader on the inside of the (very thin?) kevlar using a good thermal adhesive/grease on both sides to ensure high thermal coupling between the interior phone components and the exterior kevlar to maximum usable surface area for convective cooling.

Now I'm a little worried. I thought I was going to pre-order it tomorrow but I have no idea if Motorola has good thermal engineers, or if they even used one. Hopefully they spared no expense in designing this phone since it will either make or break them...


It will take just a few weeks now to see if Moto did apply a proper heat solution to their design and component decisions. Where the media will lighty use the device and crank out reviews, users will USE the heck out of the Razr- THAT is where we will see the real answers :)

No harm no foul now for me ATM, since I aint' payin' $688 (total) for a device with the same chipset as my Droid 3 and not global. If 4G was in my area now, I may think twice, but it is not.
 
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You are correct. Conduction (gaseous and solid) will be the primary heat transfer mode internal to the Razr. To address Rushmore's concern about having a sealed battery/phone making heat even more of an issue, it allows for the opposite. By not worrying about someone cracking the phone open, Motorola could have (and should have) used some form of thermal grease/adhesive, increasing conductive couplings. What would be funny is if that "water resistant coating" they're referring to is just thermal grease with hydrophobic properties.

Radiation heat transfer would be insignificant. The surface is small, often covered by your hands or face, or resting on something. Also since the majority of the phone is black or covered with glass, it'll absorb solar radiation quite readily. I highly doubt Motorola used a surface coating (low alpha) to prevent that. So don't leave the Razr in the sun.

I was intrigued by your last line about the kevlar vs glass. That actually has me worried a little bit. Glass has a thermal conductivity of about 1.3 W/m-K and kevlar is about 0.04 W/m-k. That's really really bad. Those are high thermal insulating materials. That tells me one of two things:

1. The kevlar is VERY thin and for show only (most likely scenario), or
2. The rim of the phone is metal and the primary heat control device.

Although we know there is a steel chassis underneath, which would allow good heat flow, i highly doubt #2 is correct. While I don't pretend to know the maximum power dissipation of the Razr, I'm assuming it's high enough based on people's complaints of the Bionic, that the rim of the phone is hardly enough surface area to keep the phone cool.

The most logical to me would be #1. It's such a huge surface area I don't think they could afford to not utilize it. What I HOPE Motorola did was apply a good (copper?) heat spreader on the inside of the (very thin?) kevlar using a good thermal adhesive/grease on both sides to ensure high thermal coupling between the interior phone components and the exterior kevlar to maximum usable surface area for convective cooling.

Now I'm a little worried. I thought I was going to pre-order it tomorrow but I have no idea if Motorola has good thermal engineers, or if they even used one. Hopefully they spared no expense in designing this phone since it will either make or break them...

That is one hell of a first post :) Keep it up!
 
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I would be very surprised if the Razr has thermal paste inside, simply because the manufacturing would be that much more complicated. Do any of the eye-phones use paste? I don't believe so judging from the tear downs I've seen.

I'd also be surprised if the Kevlar is "just for show", since the phone is so structurally thin. If the kevlar is for show, that would mean all the structural stiffness comes from the gorilla glass--the stainless steel chasis is a marketing gimmick at best for strength. The steel plates they use in these phones are simply too thin, and while an excellent thermal conductor, is a bit flimsy otherwise. Likewise, the sealed battery is part of the structural strength of the phone--the phone can be thinner without beefing up the frame to account for the battery door cutout. That big, solid shell of kevlar is what's providing the rest of the rigidity.

A thermal adhesive wouldn't be messy depending on the type they use. I've never seen the internals of an iPhone, but I'd be curious to see the internals of the Razr. Although, glass is pretty rigid. From what I understand it's one of many reasons the iPhone 4 feels so solid.

I would actually think the Kevlar is more a marketing gimmick than the stainless steel frame...".. get your bulletproof phone!" There's no mention of the Kevlar being anywhere other than that back cover, which, in that case means it's only as strong as it's supporting structure and the resin used to stiffen the fibers.

I'm not a materials engineer by profession, but I believe the "stronger than steel" property only refers to Kevlar's tensile strength in its pliable fiber form. Obviously there's no compressive strength if it's pliable since it would just fold over. The problem with rigid forms of fiber composites such as carbon and Kevlar is that they're relatively easy to break i comparison to the pliable form. I'm guessing it has to do with the cracked resin edge shearing the fibers like a knife. This is actually a good property for say, race cars, to have a strong rigid body to enhance handling performance, but, if in a collision, allows the pieces to break off, crumble, and dissipate the impact into other forms of energy.

Again, I'm no materials or structural engineer by profession so I could be completely wrong. But until I see that inevitable tear down someone's likely to perform, I'm more likely to believe that the Kevlar is a thin sheet plastered onto some sheet metal substrate. My OG droid battery cover is very strong.
 
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Even if you return a device to VZW before the two weeks, it usually counts against your update, unless you get lucky and they wave it. VZW corporate took the control of that decision away from stores.

Sorry if I misunderstood you but as long as you return the phone you purchased before the 14 day period, you're upgrade date along with any NE2 discount will be reset back to what it was originally. I've gone through this situation twice. Once with the Droid Charge and again with the Bionic.
 
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Sorry if I misunderstood you but as long as you return the phone you purchased before the 14 day period, you're upgrade date along with any NE2 discount will be reset back to what it was originally. I've gone through this situation twice. Once with the Droid Charge and again with the Bionic.

Correct. The rep reiterated this to me today.
 
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A thermal adhesive wouldn't be messy depending on the type they use. I've never seen the internals of an iPhone, but I'd be curious to see the internals of the Razr. Although, glass is pretty rigid. From what I understand it's one of many reasons the iPhone 4 feels so solid.
If you are interested, you can find take apart videos on Youtube for practically any phone out in the wild. It might interest you to see what the guts actually look like.

I would actually think the Kevlar is more a marketing gimmick than the stainless steel frame...".. get your bulletproof phone!" There's no mention of the Kevlar being anywhere other than that back cover, which, in that case means it's only as strong as it's supporting structure and the resin used to stiffen the fibers.
This, unfortunately, is absolutely incorrect. All these modern big screen phones use a monocoque structure, which requires the external shell to be the load bearing part of the structure--that includes the screen glass. If you were to build an internal frame capable of handling the torsional and bending stresses a large relatively flat phone undergoes, it would be prohibitively large and heavy.

By all accounts, the Razr is "unbelievably light and thin". You can't achieve that with an internal frame or the gorilla glass alone.

I'm not a materials engineer by profession, but I believe the "stronger than steel" property only refers to Kevlar's tensile strength in its pliable fiber form. Obviously there's no compressive strength if it's pliable since it would just fold over. The problem with rigid forms of fiber composites such as carbon and Kevlar is that they're relatively easy to break i comparison to the pliable form. I'm guessing it has to do with the cracked resin edge shearing the fibers like a knife. This is actually a good property for say, race cars, to have a strong rigid body to enhance handling performance, but, if in a collision, allows the pieces to break off, crumble, and dissipate the impact into other forms of energy.
Fortunately, I am an engineer by trade and have a heavy background in materials. Composites do not generally fail that way. While the thought of razor sharp shards of resin matrix sounds like fun, the actual failure mechanism is a lot more mundane. Resin composites like Kevlar fail basically through delamination. As the resin matrix bends and is stressed, microfractues form. As these microfractures expand and intersect the kevlar fibers, they tend to travel along the fiber resulting in localized delamination of the resin from the fiber. As the stresses continue, the delam regions will grow and coalesce, leaving the unsupported fiber to handle all the loads. At some point, there is a stress that exceeds the ability of the fibers to hold, and you end up with some sort of catastrophic failure. The Kevlar fiber does indeed fail, even if the tensile strength is greater than steel. Once the matrix breaks down, the mtutal support is gone and the fibers are rather weak individually. And in this usage, "Kevlar" does not refer to simply the spun fiber, but the composite material. So, making a distinction between the two isn't really useful here.

Again, I'm no materials or structural engineer by profession so I could be completely wrong. But until I see that inevitable tear down someone's likely to perform, I'm more likely to believe that the Kevlar is a thin sheet plastered onto some sheet metal substrate. My OG droid battery cover is very strong.

Two points here. First, the Kevlar is likely molded to the rest of the back shell. That is no way reduces its contribution to the rigidity or overall strength of the monocoque structure. Second, battery covers have to be strong because in these types of phones, they are semi load bearing as part of the monocque structure. I say semi, because they aren't completely load bearing. The shell around the battery door has to be beefed up in two ways--one to transfer stress to the battery door, and two to make up for the incomplete load carried by the battery door.

The Razr's thinness is only possible at this time becuase it does have a solid, load bearing back shell allowing for a more elegant and thin solution.

One final "Oh, by the way": Metals are omni directional in strength, meaning equally strong in all ways--including in directions you don't need strength at all. That results in wasted material and mass. By choosing a composite back, the Motorola designers could conceivably have designed the back to be specificaly strong in torsion and bending, but not particularly strong in tension or compression (though bending is a localized form of both tension and compression).

My question is this: does the Kevlar shell wrap around the whole back shell, or just the visible plate? I suspect the rim "edge" of the back plate is simply a thin layer of protective material to prevent exposed Kevlar corners for getting abraded and ultimately delamming.
 
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It will take just a few weeks now to see if Moto did apply a proper heat solution to their design and component decisions. Where the media will lighty use the device and crank out reviews, users will USE the heck out of the Razr- THAT is where we will see the real answers :)

No harm no foul now for me ATM, since I aint' payin' $688 (total) for a device with the same chipset as my Droid 3 and not global. If 4G was in my area now, I may think twice, but it is not.


My review will most likely set it on Fire..
 
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First off, excellent discussion. I am learning some new things about phones (and other random various things). Thanks for the discussion, although I would have appreciated a little more tactfulness in some of your replies. The tone of some of your responses seem hell bent on making me look like an idiot. I did "disclaim" things I was unsure about, which happened to coincide with the responses to which I am referring. But I may just be misinterpreting, it is "text only" after all. So no hard feelings. :)

All these modern big screen phones use a monocoque structure, which requires the external shell to be the load bearing part of the structure--that includes the screen glass.
Didn't know that, but it makes perfect sense.

If you were to build an internal frame capable of handling the torsional and bending stresses a large relatively flat phone undergoes, it would be prohibitively large and heavy.
Not necessarily. The frame can be designed in conjunction with the required internal electronics to support the shell. It's not uncommon to use the PCBs and ICs to provide added structural support in small electronics device.

By all accounts, the Razr is "unbelievably light and thin". You can't achieve that with an internal frame or the gorilla glass alone.
Agreed. See above.

Fortunately, I am an engineer by trade and have a heavy background in materials.
Me too, but not in materials. My knowledge in those areas is limited to what I remember from school and "negotiations" with material and structural engineers to satisfy everyone's requirements. Thermal specialization here. ;)

Composites do not generally fail that way. While the thought of razor sharp shards of resin matrix sounds like fun, the actual failure mechanism is a lot more mundane. Resin composites like Kevlar fail basically through delamination. As the resin matrix bends and is stressed, microfractues form. As these microfractures expand and intersect the kevlar fibers, they tend to travel along the fiber resulting in localized delamination of the resin from the fiber. As the stresses continue, the delam regions will grow and coalesce, leaving the unsupported fiber to handle all the loads. At some point, there is a stress that exceeds the ability of the fibers to hold, and you end up with some sort of catastrophic failure. The Kevlar fiber does indeed fail, even if the tensile strength is greater than steel. Once the matrix breaks down, the mtutal support is gone and the fibers are rather weak individually. And in this usage, "Kevlar" does not refer to simply the spun fiber, but the composite material. So, making a distinction between the two isn't really useful here.
A catastrophic delamination failure event makes perfect sense. See.. not a materials guy, but I know and can visualize exactly what you are talking about now that you described the common failure mode. I didn't even think about it in that sense. When I think delamination I think "something's about to overheat or overcool"

Two points here. First, the Kevlar is likely molded to the rest of the back shell. That is no way reduces its contribution to the rigidity or overall strength of the monocoque structure. Second, battery covers have to be strong because in these types of phones, they are semi load bearing as part of the monocque structure. I say semi, because they aren't completely load bearing. The shell around the battery door has to be beefed up in two ways--one to transfer stress to the battery door, and two to make up for the incomplete load carried by the battery door.
1. Never said otherwise. And I agree that can only help.
2. Actually, I don't think my OG Droid battery cover even qualifies for semi-load bearing. It's quite the sad little cover that pops off all the time. I was referring to it out of context, praising its strength, despite its thinness.

The Razr's thinness is only possible at this time becuase it does have a solid, load bearing back shell allowing for a more elegant and thin solution.
Still not in full agreement here. Although my knowledge of materials is limited, I do remember quite a bit about structural and load bearing design/analysis. As I mentioned above, tightly packed and well coupled internals would help satisfy both structural and thermal requirements. It might just not be the easiest or most practical to assemble. Also, the battery itself is probably being utilized for structural support as well.

One final "Oh, by the way": Metals are omni directional in strength, meaning equally strong in all ways--including in directions you don't need strength at all. That results in wasted material and mass.
Yes, I know. Those are the basics of MSE.

By choosing a composite back, the Motorola designers could conceivably have designed the back to be specificaly strong in torsion and bending, but not particularly strong in tension or compression (though bending is a localized form of both tension and compression).
Agreed (and know about the basic physics behind bending)

My question is this: does the Kevlar shell wrap around the whole back shell, or just the visible plate? I suspect the rim "edge" of the back plate is simply a thin layer of protective material to prevent exposed Kevlar corners for getting abraded and ultimately delamming.
That would be ideal. Let's hope for that. Will you volunteer to tear your phone apart on video? :p
 
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These external battery packs are a nice option for those to consider. Seeing how 2 of the 4 are priced right around the same price as a second standard battery and has a 5000/6600mAh in them....not a bad deal really. You are getting the charging ability of like 2 extended batteries you would otherwise be buying for your phone at around $75 for each. So you'd really be saving money with these too.

The 11000mAh version is $77 and would equal the charging of about 4 extended batteries.

Smartphone Batteries & Battery Extenders - Shop Online Now and Save!
 
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I like having a replaceable battery because I take my phone hiking and camping. The current bushs in the areas that I go are not very reliable for recharging a cell phone. lol

If you like hiking you should know that external batteries are better for 3 reasons:

1. They can charge all devices that an get power over USB (and even those that require non-USB connection like laptops etc.).
2. They can charge multiple devices AT THE SAME TIME.
3. They hold much, much more juice than a phone battery. While the Razr battery is 1750mAh or around an external battery can be as big as 15000mAh.
 
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