Tell me why I should Root my EVO

[EarlyMon]

Eh? The "ondemand" governor couldn't care less what underlying userspace is running (be it Android, your desktop machine, or a server box), and only cares about overall CPU load. Plus, nothing about CPU frequency factors into garbage collection nor process time-slice (other than more run-time can be done for a given execution period).

Cite, with real data?

I'm not going to apologize - I am going to repost what I said for inspection:

That stuff that loads up in the background and gets well-managed anyway?

Yes, true on my old Moment.

The Evo - different story.

The Android resource manager is said, in some forums, to not be terribly effective with the higher speed phones, and my experience confirms that.

1. That's purely anecdotal and I identified it as such: The Android resource manager is said, in some forums, to not be terribly effective with the higher speed phones

2. I stated my rationale for bringing it up: my experience confirms that

3. I showed that I had two points to raise the issue.

If I'd had data to reference, I'd have used that in the first place. I'm still finding my way through the Android repository, so I don't always know the right terms for what I'm describing.

I will however, thank you for giving me that little bit to help me start searching on - OnDemand governor. This was an interesting starting point -

Android Rooted: setCPU and CPU Governance

It's been around for years, I've never been aware of it before:

The Ondemand Governor | LinuxInsight

You said: Plus, nothing about CPU frequency factors into garbage collection - and as that's so plain that even the word obvious fails, I'd like to know why you brought that up - I didn't, or least I didn't intend to. I did say that memory grew, but given that I know that some things do no garbage collection (to speak of), some do it quite well, and some do it well but in unusual ways (I'm looking at you, Tk data caching) - I presumed that the Java tools for Android were sufficient for the job, and that any garbage collection issues would be more a case of (really) poor app design for that to happen. My assumption is merely that some developers of some apps may well be kinda hogging and internally caching. In such a case, I would like plenty of free memory for them to do that, without bloatware impacting my system in any way.

You also said: Plus, nothing about CPU frequency factors into ... process time-slice (other than more run-time can be done for a given execution period). That's equally plain and again even the word obvious is too much. I'll take responsibility for using such unclear terminology that you must have been very frustrated to have posted that. You're describing process quanta.

However - that's not the issue. The OnDemand Governor simply scales CPU frequency based on load. I noted that from direct observation. I also noted that as frequency goes up so does power consumption.

It's not the OnDemand Governor I'm questioning - I'm questioning process management.

A quick (probably unnecessary for you) review of Linux process management is here:

Understanding the Linux Kernel: Chapter 10: Process Scheduling

Anatomy of Linux process management

However - from Android Code Day: gateway to a new kind of application - O'Reilly ONLamp Blog:

However, process management is lazy. A process that terminates is allowed to stay in memory in case the user restarts it in the near future, but the process can be purged to make way for new ones.

So, when are processes purged? Is it so inconceivable that unknown issues have crept in that impact Android's implementation of things that have a processor dependency not at issue in Linux?

I don't know and fully take responsibility for not being clear and would like to correct that:

1. I absolutely do not believe in task killers and that the Android processes should normally be trusted (that's at the top of my own thread on this).

2. That said, I encountered a forum statement that there may be issue with that on the newer high-speed processors. I dismissed it at the time, so I didn't check at that moment if I was looking at a rumor or at a qualified statement by a member of the dev community.

3. Later, after switching from my Moment to my Evo, I found myself dissatisfied. Even avoiding Sense, the bloat that didn't kill me on my Moment was giving me grief on my Evo. (Sprint) Anecdotally, I correlated that to battery usage and a target for improvement.

4. I researched available apps, and experimented with Startup Cleaner 2.0 and Application Task Cleaner Pro, and found a definite improvement in my battery and my overall enjoyment of responsiveness with the Evo.

5. This led me to conclude to try all reasonable strategies down that path. Unlike the Moment, I arrived at the conclusion that if I wanted to continue to respect the idea of not externally (from Android) process managing and get the performance I want, full root and bloat removal was my only option.

6. I invited others to see if this works for them.

I found nothing extreme in ATCPro (not to be confused with any other task manager) management of things, my phone's battery and responsiveness improved. I recommend it as a good first step or an alternative to those unwilling to root.

Now - I could be wrong in accepting that the Android process management is less effective because of the EVO's higher processor speed.

I am often wrong.

It could be that the EVO's larger memory is the issue. It could be a combination of factors.

But - there is an issue.

Detailed specs follow for fast reference:

HTC EVO 4G A9292 (HTC Supersonic) Specs | Technical Specifications | PDAdb.net - Comprehensive Database of PDA, PDA Phone, Smartphone, PNA & Mobile Device Specifications

Samsung SPH-M900 Moment Specs | Technical Specifications | PDAdb.net - Comprehensive Database of PDA, PDA Phone, Smartphone, PNA & Mobile Device Specifications

 

[CaNiKiCkIt]

PRO

U dont have to pay sprint 29.99 for wifi tethering...

 

[kencrudup]

EarlyMon- at least you did the research, and I'll give you credit for knowing what I was getting at.

But I'm still unconvinced that the issue is processor speed- as you'd eluded to, with more memory (we've got what, 1/2 GB of RAM?) that higher-end phones have (which almost always implies a faster processor, too) there's going to be more time spent on memory management in general.

But at least you don't use a Task Killer ...!

 

[EarlyMon]

EarlyMon- at least you did the research, and I'll give you credit for knowing what I was getting at.

But I'm still unconvinced that the issue is processor speed- as you'd eluded to, with more memory (we've got what, 1/2 GB of RAM?) that higher-end phones have (which almost always implies a faster processor, too) there's going to be more time spent on memory management in general.

But at least you don't use a Task Killer ...!

If wishes were horses, I'd ride one back in time and take note of whatever forum(s) and whatever entries that put the process mgmt vs. cpu-class idea out there - so I could have validated at the very least by authorship.

I'm developing a vested interest in getting this right.

In the past, I've funded projects within my company to have staff contribute to FOSS to give back to the well we drink from ourselves. I'm considering steering the guys on to Android.

Linux dev team and I stopped talking some good ten years ago or so when I had the audacity to suggest that they openly support calling the operating system GNU/Linux, and clarify to the market that Linux is only the kernel. I put up with a day of flaming and walked away, lmao.

Then I bummed Stallman out because I advocated supporting Darwin as a unifying factor - he wasn't clear why I would do that because that was under BSD License (as I recall) rather than GPL and why would I waste my efforts. (That said, I found him to be quite the gentleman and most thoughtful, despite how the press portrays him as a whack job. He's not. Or, rather, if he is, then none of this - including Android - would have happened in any way without him, so he's my kind of whack job.) Geez. I just realized that I haven't even emailed him in a good 5 years. I get sidetracked.

I'm not terribly interested in app development, but I am becoming so in Android itself, so I'd rather not build an early reputation as a wiener.

I've done bare metal code for specialized instruments, disked and diskless, and kernel and app development for an embedded system and some other things, but I've not been heavy into that side of it (read: kernel and/or embedded) for probably some 14 years.

So - I'm deciding how to spend my copious spare time. (devoting too many hours to work already, not to mention my hardware projects around the house)

On one hand, it seems to me that most all of rooting can be automated with shell scripting and here files, and just send the Windows users off to download whatever might be missing from cygwin to run it - Linux and OS X being already covered. Could probably even make a simple web interface to bootstrap the whole thing. People seem to have gotten so enamoured with the newer tools that in my opinion they've lost sight, if they ever knew, of what a straightforward shell script can do for them, especially for task automation, without any of the revision issues or dependencies of "better than shell" languages.

So, that sounds intriguing. The downside is that it might well hamper efforts of the many great people already working those issues and hampering is the last thing I'd do.

OTOH, Android dev is pretty intriguing. The PacketVideo part is really p*ssing me off, if I'm understanding it correctly. I noted from afar that CoreCodec is sabre rattling to save the day, but I'm not sure that I'm completely clear what that means. If it means no widespread improvement to get all Android cameras H.264 capable for vid (while maintaining H.263 for videochat) then maybe I should start trying to do something there.

Either way, as I said, I don't want a reputation for making unfounded wiener statements. Sounds like the way I was talking without thinking, I was already getting there, so I appreciate the nudges.

And I'm always way open to suggestions, especially feedback on the ideas above or anything along those lines.

 

[Droidone]

Rooting can add some benifits but you will make you a rom-a-holic once you do. It opens up alot of possibilities. I am waiting for the new update coming on the 28th before I do. This phone has been great and I haven't seen the need yet.

 

[kencrudup]

I've done bare metal code for specialized instruments, disked and diskless, and kernel and app development for an embedded system and some other things, ...

Ah, so you're from the same background as me, then. I'm currently doing Core SW (think Kernel, BSP and drivers) for a Large Multinational Handset Maker on a new product. I don't get much into the Java/Android core much (but have written a couple of Android apps and some native-code stuff because that might be the future) but have done embedded designs for about a decade.

So - I'm deciding how to spend my copious spare time.

Aw hell, if you're retired then you really should help the XDA guys- they would welcome the experience.

I just don't have the time right now for my phone to be down (plus having daily access to the latest code and secret, hot unreleased hardware kinda takes the excitement out of it all )

 

[EarlyMon]

Ah, so you're from the same background as me, then. I'm currently doing Core SW (think Kernel, BSP and drivers) for a Large Multinational Handset Maker on a new product. I don't get much into the Java/Android core much (but have written a couple of Android apps and some native-code stuff because that might be the future) but have done embedded designs for about a decade.

First embedded (I think) was for deep-space packages - that's 25 yrs back. Currently am R&D director for world's leading reliability test solutions provider to the semiconductor industry. Lots of real time stuff. Never built a RT data ac system I didn't love. Thought I was done, was going to bail to retire with new bar in Hawaii. Decided I'd contribute to one last big project, have cake, eat it too, put money back into company short term. Plan did not include econ downturn, so decided to go into build phase to be there when manufacturing turned around. Decided to go back from world-wide ops to devel - just wanted to write some code, pass on what I knew. Got frustrated with youngsters who thought they'd invented hacking and no one communicating with each other. Promoted myself. Projects now doing great, industry turned around but now am stuck in management commitment to partners, bored, looking for interesting work so brain does not turn into mashed potatoes.

Actually, the work can be interesting. A couple of weeks ago, was hanging out with a customer and a compadre, kinda talking, didn't realize things weren't be done an obvious way to me - or a different obvious way to my buddy. I guess we've ended 3 or 5 new things that are going into patent application and should affect stuff we'll all be seeing on the consumer market maybe sometime in 2011. If the future allows, I'll share what that is someday - if I can't because of NDA - well, you'll like it anyway.

Aw hell, if you're retired then you really should help the XDA guys- they would welcome the experience.

See above.

Maybe... guess I'll lurk a little harder there, then.

Just so you know - when I really retire, I'm planning on spending most of my time half-naked on a beach somewhere - so my cell phone better be perfect.

I just don't have the time right now for my phone to be down (plus having daily access to the latest code and secret, hot unreleased hardware kinda takes the excitement out of it all )

Ja wohl, compadre, ja wohl.

Kernel+BSP, huh? Very interesting, ok, very interesting.