Where Does Self Defense End? Killer of Robber Convicted of Murder

[batgeek]

To be clear, what we are doing here is what-if scenarios. What else could have happened? How else could things have gone down?

The jury has already looked at all the evidence, which we do not have access to, and decided that it was murder, which appears to be the case based on the info in the readily available public domain.

i don't deal in what if.

 

[55pilot]

The guy still shot a guy five times while he was laying on the ground. Assuming he was conscious, how do you justify that he was any sort of threat? And even if he was a threat, how do you argue that the threat he posed was an immediate threat to your life or the life of others? The guy was laying on the ground with a gunshot wound to his head.

A guy who is laying on the ground bleeding from the gunshot can still shoot and kill if you walk into a location where he has a shot at you. Several of our troops have been hit and a few killed in exactly this manner in the last decade. In a civilian situation, rather than intentionally putting yourself in a situation where you have to shoot the person because you have just walked into their kill zone and can not get out of it safely, you should focus on not putting yourself there in the first place. That means not approaching a downed bad guy. Take cover, call 911, observe them and act only if they are able to proactively come after you.

If you act to put yourself in a situation where you have to shoot the person, you have a very steep climb out of that hole. Even if your eventual decision to shoot can clearly be shown to be self defense, because you initiated the situation that led to your needing to shoot, it will not be justified and you will likely get convicted.

That is the most charitable potential scenario of what happened here.

 

[55pilot]

i don't deal in what if.

In that case, I hereby release you form your obligation to participate in this thread. You are free to not post.

 

[batgeek]

thank you. i shall leave this fantasy world.

 

[AndyLL]

you forgot the most important one:

don't go get another firearm and execute the individual.

That's the 2nd most important one... the most important one is to make sure there are no cameras.

I've read about this story in plenty of forums but this is the 1st time I've watched the video.

Holy cow... I now understand why the jury took less then an hour to convict him.

1) The guy he shot never showed a gun.

2) He walked past him and turned his back to him when he chased the other guy outside.

3) Coming back inside and walked past him and turned his back to him to go get the other gun.

4) Then calmly walked back and shot him.

He didn't look paniced or threatened at any time.

How anyone could argue self defense after watching that is beyond me.

 

[Dark Jedi]

Every firearms class I have ever taken, there is a list of "do not do these dumb things". Number 1 on the list is always "Do not chase after the bad guys" followed at some point with "do not approach a fallen bad guy to check up on them, disarm them or render aid" and "do not try and hold them at gun point because you are either going to get spooked and shoot them or going to get shot by them"

It is easy to do Monday morning quarterbacking and being an expert with no qualifications. Until you have been in a really stressful situation, you do not appreciate how your mind and body reacts and you are not going to be able to do certain things unless you have had a lot of practice. I see pilots getting killed all the time doing exactly that. They make unrealistic plans for dealing with an emergency, not appreciating how their faculties are likely to fail them when the need to execute those plans in a real life or death situation.
Can you cite the source for his veteran status? Assuming that info is accurate, can you cite a source for the type of training he received? Here's a hint: If he was an airforce pharmacist, part of the medical corps, it is unlikely he got any firearms training.

I had a friend in college that went on to join the army after she finished med school. I talked to he at the 5th reunion (1 year into her military career) and she said that her entire military training lasted a few weeks and consisted of military protocol, how to salute, who to salute and how to properly wear a uniform. She had never touched a firearm and did not need to because she was a pediatrician. If this guy was in the medical corps in the airforce, especially in the reserves, he may not have any more official training than that.

Sorry your friend either lied to you or this is a totally fabricated story. If she went in the reserve she would still have to do OTS. THAT school is not two weeks and she went in as an enlisted. She would still have to complete basic training. Everyone when I was in basic and also at my bases have to qualify m-16 and. 38. I had people in my certification class that was in the medical field, administration, intel and so on.

So you really want me to believe she got a few weeks training. Especially being in the army when everyone's first job is to carry a rifle. Then they have their second job for what they signed up for. After all if a base gets overrun every service man and woman has to be able to defend it.

So your friend was never in the army and lied to you or you made it up. So want to come clean with this story as i was in the military and anyone that was or is in the military will say what she said isn't true.

 

[nlsme]

Every firearms class I have ever taken, there is a list of "do not do these dumb things". Number 1 on the list is always "Do not chase after the bad guys" followed at some point with "do not approach a fallen bad guy to check up on them, disarm them or render aid" and "do not try and hold them at gun point because you are either going to get spooked and shoot them or going to get shot by them"

It is easy to do Monday morning quarterbacking and being an expert with no qualifications. Until you have been in a really stressful situation, you do not appreciate how your mind and body reacts and you are not going to be able to do certain things unless you have had a lot of practice. I see pilots getting killed all the time doing exactly that. They make unrealistic plans for dealing with an emergency, not appreciating how their faculties are likely to fail them when the need to execute those plans in a real life or death situation.
Can you cite the source for his veteran status? Assuming that info is accurate, can you cite a source for the type of training he received? Here's a hint: If he was an airforce pharmacist, part of the medical corps, it is unlikely he got any firearms training.

I had a friend in college that went on to join the army after she finished med school. I talked to he at the 5th reunion (1 year into her military career) and she said that her entire military training lasted a few weeks and consisted of military protocol, how to salute, who to salute and how to properly wear a uniform. She had never touched a firearm and did not need to because she was a pediatrician. If this guy was in the medical corps in the airforce, especially in the reserves, he may not have any more official training than that.

I am pretty sure that all service members from any branch go through basic training. And they all cover at least some weapons training in basic.

 

[A.Nonymous]

A guy who is laying on the ground bleeding from the gunshot can still shoot and kill if you walk into a location where he has a shot at you. Several of our troops have been hit and a few killed in exactly this manner in the last decade. In a civilian situation, rather than intentionally putting yourself in a situation where you have to shoot the person because you have just walked into their kill zone and can not get out of it safely, you should focus on not putting yourself there in the first place. That means not approaching a downed bad guy. Take cover, call 911, observe them and act only if they are able to proactively come after you.

Yeah, but the guy didn't do that. He walked by the guy twice (going out of the store and coming into the store) and there was a counter between him and the bad guy on the ground. He wasn't in a kill zone at all. He was behind the counter and across the store from him. There's no way he could've had a visual on a guy who's laying on the ground on the other side of a counter.

The man is a retired Air Force Colonel. If he had done the exact same thing to an enemy soldier, he'd have been charged with a crime.

 

[55pilot]

THAT school is not two weeks and she went in as an enlisted.

Now that is a definitive statement about a person that you do not even know. You are claiming that a MD went into the army as an enlisted? What would possess someone to do that?

I am not familiar with pharmacists, but MDs who had already completed med school but not started their residency were able to join the service at Lt and fairly quickly get promoted to Major or Lt. Colonel by the time they finished their residency. That promotion schedule was part of their contract, subject to satisfactory performance and dependent on the field of specialty and length of residency. They would then have to give a number of years of service (I recall 7, but I could be wrong there) and would usually make Colonel by the end. In return they would get paid a real wage for the residency and the military would assume all their college debt. The only military training they got was as described earlier. They were not soldiers and no one pretended that they were. Many, like this pediatrician, would never be expected to see front line service.

I am not sure where pharmacists fit in this. A "doctor of pharmacy" or PharmD is a doctoral level degree and on paper is equal to a MD degree. I suspect the military may have a similar program for them. But, that was not always the case. Until about the late 1990's you could get licensed as a pharmacist with only a masters level degree which would not garner the same level of VIP treatment.

 

[55pilot]

The man is a retired Air Force Colonel. If he had done the exact same thing to an enemy soldier, he'd have been charged with a crime.

Sadly, many of our soldiers have done just that and worse to enemy soldiers in the last decade with very few cases getting charged with anything. The media that has tried reporting on this has been attacked as unpatriotic and anti-American.
http://www.goarmy.com/amedd.html

 

[55pilot]

I am pretty sure that all service members from any branch go through basic training. And they all cover at least some weapons training in basic.

You are mistaken. Highly specialized and highly trained professionals, like MDs or technical PhDs, sometimes even JDs, that go in with professional degrees already in hand start out as officers (usually O2 or O3, sometimes even O4) and if their specialty has no realistic need for being at the front line, they are not given any weapons or tactical training. They certainly do not go through "basic training"

Edited to add: The type of commission is called a "Direct Commission". People joining the service on a Direct Commission attend "Officer Indoctrination School" not basic training or "Officer Candidate School"

You can read about it at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_commission_officer

Of if you are the type that does not trust Wikipedia and are too lazy to personally follow the links to the source material at the bottom to verify the information, you can read about it at: http://www.goarmy.com/amedd.html

 

[Bearly]

Devils advocate. ...

Kid CHOSE to rob someone with a gun. What did he expect might happen in OKC? When you choose to embark on a violent criminal endeavor like that, you sign up for the worst possible consequence: losing your life.

Now, I would also like to know what the kid was doing off camera, how badly was he hurt, etc.

If he was incapacitated and had no gun on him and was not threatening the man...he didn't deserve to be shot. Do I feel sorry for the kid? No.

And the fact that he's a kid makes no difference. You know the consequences of carrying a gun so you know why you're carrying it: to at least threaten someone's life if not pull the trigger.

 

[Dark Jedi]

Now that is a definitive statement about a person that you do not even know. You are claiming that a MD went into the army as an enlisted? What would possess someone to do that?

I am not familiar with pharmacists, but MDs who had already completed med school but not started their residency were able to join the service at Lt and fairly quickly get promoted to Major or Lt. Colonel by the time they finished their residency. That promotion schedule was part of their contract, subject to satisfactory performance and dependent on the field of specialty and length of residency. They would then have to give a number of years of service (I recall 7, but I could be wrong there) and would usually make Colonel by the end. In return they would get paid a real wage for the residency and the military would assume all their college debt. The only military training they got was as described earlier. They were not soldiers and no one pretended that they were. Many, like this pediatrician, would never be expected to see front line service.

I am not sure where pharmacists fit in this. A "doctor of pharmacy" or PharmD is a doctoral level degree and on paper is equal to a MD degree. I suspect the military may have a similar program for them. But, that was not always the case. Until about the late 1990's you could get licensed as a pharmacist with only a masters level degree which would not garner the same level of VIP treatment.

To never said if so was officer or enlisted. She have to go through OTS just like everyone else who wanted to become an officer. The doctors and medical staff are not exempt from OTS. Just I we even good friends with a flight surgeon and he talked about how ots was he'll and was just a few weeks. If I remember ots was 12 weeks for air force. So stop talking about stuff you don't know. As I can tell you never was I the military because if you was you would know your friend was feeding you baloney. I even met a guy where I worked talked about working B-52's and how they could land on carriers. Well I worked the 52 so I had fun with him. Sometimes people lies to try and impress others at reunions.

Any rank enlisted or officer you have to test except for general and admerial. They are pointed by congress. Officers are given rank to O-3 far from light col. Enlisted is given rank up to E-4.

 

[Dark Jedi]

You are mistaken. Highly specialized and highly trained professionals, like MDs or technical PhDs, sometimes even JDs, that go in with professional degrees already in hand start out as officers (usually O2 or O3, sometimes even O4) and if their specialty has no realistic need for being at the front line, they are not given any weapons or tactical training. They certainly do not go through "basic training"

Edited to add: The type of commission is called a "Direct Commission". People joining the service on a Direct Commission attend "Officer Indoctrination School" not basic training or "Officer Candidate School"

You can read about it at: Direct commission officer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of if you are the type that does not trust Wikipedia and are too lazy to personally follow the links to the source material at the bottom to verify the information, you can read about it at: Army Health Care (AMEDD) | GoArmy.com

Yeah that's called the academy like air force Academy or west point or a college program that's called ROTC.

 

[Dark Jedi]

Oh and forgot doctors and priests when they get their commission starts out as an O-3

 

[55pilot]

Yeah that's called the academy like air force Academy or west point or a college program that's called ROTC.

Better call up the army and inform them that their website at the provided link does not conform to what you believe their rules ought to be.

 

[pastafarian]

Guys, I want you to discuss the issues freely, but avoid personally attacking one another or this thread will be closed.

 

[nlsme]

You are mistaken. Highly specialized and highly trained professionals, like MDs or technical PhDs, sometimes even JDs, that go in with professional degrees already in hand start out as officers (usually O2 or O3, sometimes even O4) and if their specialty has no realistic need for being at the front line, they are not given any weapons or tactical training. They certainly do not go through "basic training"

Edited to add: The type of commission is called a "Direct Commission". People joining the service on a Direct Commission attend "Officer Indoctrination School" not basic training or "Officer Candidate School"

You can read about it at: Direct commission officer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of if you are the type that does not trust Wikipedia and are too lazy to personally follow the links to the source material at the bottom to verify the information, you can read about it at: Army Health Care (AMEDD) | GoArmy.com

" At that point the newly commissioned officer will then need to attend the Basic Officer Leadership Course " From your link. Guess what, I am pretty sure there is SOME weapons training.

 

[55pilot]

To never said if so was officer or enlisted. She have to go through OTS just like everyone else who wanted to become an officer. The doctors and medical staff are not exempt from OTS. Just I we even good friends with a flight surgeon and he talked about how ots was he'll and was just a few weeks. If I remember ots was 12 weeks for air force. So stop talking about stuff you don't know. As I can tell you never was I the military because if you was you would know your friend was feeding you baloney. I even met a guy where I worked talked about working B-52's and how they could land on carriers. Well I worked the 52 so I had fun with him. Sometimes people lies to try and impress others at reunions.

Any rank enlisted or officer you have to test except for general and admerial. They are pointed by congress. Officers are given rank to O-3 far from light col. Enlisted is given rank up to E-4.

It is obvious that it boils down to your opinion versus mine. People reading this, including the highlighted parts, can decide who they find more credible.

 

[55pilot]

Guess what, I am pretty sure there is SOME weapons training.

Direct Commission covers not just pre-qualified medical staff, but other specialties like clergy. I can imagine this conversation "Father Smith, please aim for the heart before pressing the trigger otherwise you will not be able to kill the person you are shooting at."

Not that I am conceding the point, but "some" weapons training is a far cry from the crack ninja warrior colonel with years of military firearms and tactical training that we started with when the thread took this detour.

 

[nlsme]

Direct Commission covers not just pre-qualified medical staff, but other specialties like clergy. I can imagine this conversation "Father Smith, please aim for the heart before pressing the trigger otherwise you will not be able to kill the person you are shooting at."

Not that I am conceding the point, but "some" weapons training is a far cry from the crack ninja warrior colonel with years of military firearms and tactical training that we started with when the thread took this detour.

I never said they were "crack ninja warrior colonel with years of millitary training". In fact, nobody did. It was simply stated that all millitary undergo SOME weapons training.

 

[Dark Jedi]

It is obvious that it boils down to your opinion versus mine. People reading this, including the highlighted parts, can decide who they find more credible.

I was trying a new keyboard and wasn't paying attention to what I was typing. It has this thing word prediction and was changing what I typed. Like I said you clearly don't know how the military operates. To say the clergy don't shoot a gun? That's wrong on so many levels. To comes down to their choice and I have met a few who was avid hunters and competition shooting. So like I said all officers goes though a type of ots and are taught more than how to salute and who to salute. Only people who don't have to attend ots are the ones that attended an Academy like west point and so on. That is their ots.

So you can try and insult me all you want. I I will not be lowering myself to your standards when you don't get your way. From your posts you clearly don't know how the military operates. Maybe I suggest joining and find out how it does.

 

[noah way]

So you can try and insult me all you want. I I will not be lowering myself to your standards when you don't get your way. From your posts you clearly don't know how the military operates. Maybe I suggest joining and find out how it does.

Dude, stop flopping. It doesn't add to your credibility.

 

[Roze]

Guys, I want you to discuss the issues freely, but avoid personally attacking one another or this thread will be closed.

I find that this thread has derailed with a lot of bickering and there seems to be no intention of members going back to what was originally being discussed. As this is the point, I find there's no need to have this thread continue anymore. If you want to continue the convesation, then do so via PM, but remember that Froums etiquette still applies even in PM.

Thread Closed.

Regards,
Roze