Unexplained mass animal deaths sweeping the world in 2011. Has anyone heard about this?

[9to5cynic]

Well, that's a bit of a stretch.

Many, but not all, bamboo types flower at the same time, some only once every several decades and no matter where on Earth they are planted. A host bamboo of a cutting placed in another environment will still match flowering times with its "baby," but not because of anything magic, it just has to do with the "clock" in the plant's cells.

They do die at the same time, for the same reasons as they flower at the same time, environment being the least important of the plant's inner "clock" on a cellular level. Fascinating species.

But to try to superimpose that plant's flowering and dying cycles on the mass animal deaths reported and noted here is a very big stretch indeed. Things need to be looked into deeply for answers wrt die offs. The answers are there, but it takes time to science them out into the open.

Glad you added that. I was thinking No F'in way!!! Now it's just ....meh...

 

[novox77]

Go tell that to a pack of Lions

Last I checked, there aren't any zoos that lions have created to house humans.

We're dominant because we don't fight fair. We make weapons and use them.

 

[cds0699]

Last I checked, there aren't any zoos that lions have created to house humans.

We're dominant because we don't fight fair. We make weapons and use them.

I was trying to be humorous.

 

[chimphappyhour]

you don't have to be a scientist to doubt a theory. I never said I was smarter or more educated than the scientists, I said "I don't buy it" - in other words, it doesn't make logical sense to me. I don't have a theory. I would rather be honest and say "I don't know" than offer a vague explanation filled with many holes.

If you believed those theories, you should look into the situation more. They don't make sense when compared to the big picture. Did the fireworks also kill the 200 cows in wisconsin, 100,000 drum fish in arkansas, the 40,000 devil crabs in the U.K., or the 2 MILLION dead fish in maryland? wouldn't something that killed 40,000 devil crabs kill another species as well? whats yourtheory on this, chimp?

You don't have to be a scientist to doubt theory but it would help to have a science background to make an education argument for doubting it. I have a strong science background including courses in zoology, anatomy and physiology. Once you have that kind of background, you have a very good groundwork to understanding how one species can be overcome by something while another won't. Heck, it even happens within sub-species!

All one really has to do is look at the difference between humans of different nationalities and colors. Sickle cell anemia ring any bells? How about the Europeans infecting the natives of the Americas when they showed up? Did you know redheads are far more resistant to painkillers? That's just three really quick examples from within the same species, the human species!

I strongly suggest getting some good science and health courses under your belt so this doesn't all seem like strange voodoo. In reality, it isn't and shouldn't be anymore. The world isn't flat, the earth revolves around the sun and these aren't the dark ages.

 

[tommy_ed]

You don't have to be a scientist to doubt theory but it would help to have a science background to make an education argument for doubting it.

I think in this situation I could just use common sense. I understand things similar to this have happened in the past, but never this frequently, and never on such a large scale. Why, out of the past millions of years, is this just now happening like this? Some type of chemical pollutant? Government weapon? Aliens? Are the christians right? who the f**k knows...

I have a strong science background including courses in zoology, anatomy and physiology....

I'm surprised with your "strong science background" you bought such vague and weak theories. I ask again, what exactly is your theory as to what happened? I'd like you to be specific to each incident from 2011. Considering your strong science background, it should be pretty easy for you.

I strongly suggest getting some good science and health courses under your belt so this doesn't all seem like strange voodoo. In reality, it isn't and shouldn't be anymore. The world isn't flat, the earth revolves around the sun and these aren't the dark ages.

You're attempting to insult me with this statement. I never said anything about magic or voodoo, I simply said I don't know. I don't think you do either, and I think that scares you. So you're latching onto any explanation you come across, no matter how unlikely it may be. Sometimes you gotta be able to say "I don't know."

 

[chimphappyhour]

I think in this situation I could just use common sense. I understand things similar to this have happened in the past, but never this frequently, and never on such a large scale. Why, out of the past millions of years, is this just now happening like this? Some type of chemical pollutant? Government weapon? Aliens? Are the christians right? who the f**k knows...

And what makes you think this hasn't happened in the past?!? Mass die offs happen all the time. The only difference is the way information is related. With the internet, we now have a much faster and global way of saying, "You know what? I saw something like that too!" that didn't exist even a couple of decades ago.

I'm surprised with your "strong science background" you bought such vague and weak theories. I ask again, what exactly is your theory as to what happened? I'd like you to be specific to each incident from 2011. Considering your strong science background, it should be pretty easy for you.

I seem to remember asking you earlier "After having read these theories and deciding that your own background out trumps those of the scientists, please enlighten us with your theories as to what happened?" You never offered anything up other than saying you don't know. You didn't offer up any theories why it happened which is fine but you also don't have anything educated to offer as to why the official explanations just don't jive with you. The only thing you've offered up really amounts to a bunch of hocus pocus and that doesn't jive with most people with a solid scientific background.

These are the most plausible and highly likely explanations at hand:

USGS National Wildlife Health Center - Black Bird Die Off

AGFC | News Details

Again, please feel free to offer up your educated guess why these people are wrong. Personally, I see them as very credible reasons, way more so than aliens or government conspiracies or "I don't know but it isn't that."

You're attempting to insult me with this statement. I never said anything about magic or voodoo, I simply said I don't know. I don't think you do either, and I think that scares you. So you're latching onto any explanation you come across, no matter how unlikely it may be. Sometimes you gotta be able to say "I don't know."

If you feel insulted by that then you might want to consider why. If your conclusion is grounded in some basis of fact and understanding, then you really shouldn't. But you seem to prematurely jump to a lot of conclusions without and thought as evidenced here: "I don't think you do either, and I think that scares you." You missed on both marks as well as your follow up to that. That makes three strikes without even getting anywhere near the ball. Do they even still teach science in school?

 

[Frisco]

This is one of the best and most informed debates I've seen in the Lounge. Could we just keep phrases and words out of the posts which could be perceived by others as insulting, etc?

 

[tommy_ed]

And what makes you think this hasn't happened in the past?!?

I understand things similar to this have happened in the past, but never this frequently, and never on such a large scale.

I seem to remember asking you earlier "After having read these theories and deciding that your own background out trumps those of the scientists, please enlighten us with your theories as to what happened?"You never offered anything up other than saying you don't know.

I don't have to know the answer to a question to be skeptical of someone else's answer. For example, I don't have to know if there is or isn't a god to be skeptical that one exists or doesn't.

The only thing you've offered up really amounts to a bunch of hocus pocus and that doesn't jive with most people with a solid scientific background.

those examples i gave earlier weren't my theories... i was using them as an example, saying we really don't know for sure what caused it.
All you have so far is a hypothesis. Not an explanation.

These are the most plausible and highly likely explanations at hand:

USGS National Wildlife Health Center - Black Bird Die Off

that report claims that "blunt truama" killed 3,500 blackbirds. It says they most likely ran into objects which killed them. So for no reason THREE THOUSAND AND FIVE HUNDRED birds ALL ran into objects and died? So how were so many lying out in the open, with nothing around them which they could have hit? Have they thought the "blunt trauma" evidence they came up with is from the birds hitting the ground?

AGFC | News Details

this one claims the fish were killed when the flood gates were opened, releasing gas bubbles that filled their bladders. So why did this not kill ONE fish when they opened the gates previously?

And let me also say this: These weak theories only cover TWO issues. What are your explanations, as a scientist of course, as to the other hundreds of cases this year? For instance: The 200 cows. 40,000 devil crabs. Thousands of seal. 2 million fish in maryland. ??????

But you seem to prematurely jump to a lot of conclusions without and thought as evidenced

It's very ironic that you claim I prematurely jump to conclusions. You jumped on those weak "blunt trauma" theories pretty quickly without questioning them. I mean I'm assuming you didn't question them. If you had, considering your strong scientific background, surely you would have discovered the flaws in them, right?

Do they even still teach science in school?

Do scientists still have to have some type of concrete evidence to back up their "explanations"? Do they still use deductive reasoning? I'm very much looking forward to hearing your hypothesis on the cows, crabs, seal, 4 million fish, aligators, etc.

 

[chimphappyhour]

I don't have to know the answer to a question to be skeptical of someone else's answer. For example, I don't have to know if there is or isn't a god to be skeptical that one exists or doesn't.

Yes, but to be skeptical, it helps to be able to explain to some degree of why. Most people can at least give some decent explanation as to why. So far you haven't.

All you have so far is a hypothesis. Not an explanation.

A hypothesis is an explanation. Look it up.

that report claims that "blunt truama" killed 3,500 blackbirds. It says they most likely ran into objects which killed them. So for no reason THREE THOUSAND AND FIVE HUNDRED birds ALL ran into objects and died? So how were so many lying out in the open, with nothing around them which they could have hit? Have they thought the "blunt trauma" evidence they came up with is from the birds hitting the ground?

Again, I ask you to explain why you don't see this as feasible. What do you know, or think you know, that makes this an implausible explanation? And no reason? It doesn't take much to put birds into flight and it has already been stated that in the case of the holiday bird kills, they suspect holiday fireworks. Around here, holiday fireworks can start weeks before and go until whoever has them are out before they finish. (And some people sit on a mighty big stockpile.)

this one claims the fish were killed when the flood gates were opened, releasing gas bubbles that filled their bladders. So why did this not kill ONE fish when they opened the gates previously?

Didn't read all of that or didn't understand all of that? They named several things but it also helps to know a little about local conditions too. This past winter was especially wet so there was a lot of water. Also, notice what they said about the "hole" beneath the dam gate? Water freezes from the top down. Where do you go if you're a fish? You go as deep as you can. (Especially if you're a bottom feeder like a catfish, or in this case, a drum fish.

And let me also say this: These weak theories only cover TWO issues. What are your explanations, as a scientist of course, as to the other hundreds of cases this year? For instance: The 200 cows. 40,000 devil crabs. Thousands of seal. 2 million fish in maryland. ??????

Climate, disease, human accidents. Not familiar with the other cases but I can assure you there is a very plausible and mundane explanation for each. You just have to search for the report from the proper investigative authority and not just something you find posted to youtube or whatever.

It's very ironic that you claim I prematurely jump to conclusions. You jumped on those weak "blunt trauma" theories pretty quickly without questioning them. I mean I'm assuming you didn't question them. If you had, considering your strong scientific background, surely you would have discovered the flaws in them, right?

Please feel free to scientifically prove these flaws. We're all waiting. There's a lot of things in this world that can cause blunt trauma. Try hitting water at 100mph, it's pretty darn blunt at that speed and it's a liquid. The ground is even more so. Don't forget that two bodies speeding towards each other tend to be pretty blunt too.

Do scientists still have to have some type of concrete evidence to back up their "explanations"? Do they still use deductive reasoning? I'm very much looking forward to hearing your hypothesis on the cows, crabs, seal, 4 million fish, aligators, etc.

Like I said, search the proper authorities' reports and you'll get the best answer available using the best investigation and best facts available. Again, if you have a better explanation, please share. If the scientific community doesn't know, they'd say that but if they have a better answer, they offer it up... which is what they've done.

 

[tommy_ed]

Yes, but to be skeptical, it helps to be able to explain to some degree of why. Most people can at least give some decent explanation as to why. So far you haven't.

So for no reason THREE THOUSAND AND FIVE HUNDRED birds ALL ran into objects and died? So how were so many lying out in the open, with nothing around them which they could have hit? Have they thought the "blunt trauma" evidence they came up with is from the birds hitting the ground?

^^ I did explain why

A hypothesis is an explanation. Look it up.

A hypothesis is, by definition an educated guess. The definition states it is a "proposed" explanation, and goes on to say "a mere assumption or guess".

Again, I ask you to explain why you don't see this as feasible.

Again, I already explained my skepticism. Read above.

What do you know, or think you know, that makes this an implausible explanation? And no reason? It doesn't take much to put birds into flight and it has already been stated that in the case of the holiday bird kills, they suspect holiday fireworks. Around here, holiday fireworks can start weeks before and go until whoever has them until they are before they finish. (And some people sit on a mighty big stockpile.)

What I know is this:

• for birds to die of blunt trauma, they need to actually hit something. If you watched the video, most of the birds are laying out in the open literally hundreds of them are within feet of each other. What did they hit? Hitting each other would not kill so many of them, and the odds that that many would die from ''running into things" seems highly unlikely to me.

• Fireworks? Okay, if that's the case then why don't hundreds of birds die every time we set off fireworks?

Just so we're clear: you support the theory that someone set off some fireworks, 3,500 red wing blackbirds over several miles were frightened and took flight, smacking into each other and then falling out of the sky, dead. Right?

Didn't read all of that or didn't understand all of that? They named several things but it also helps to know a little about local conditions too. This past winter was especially wet so there was a lot of water. Also, notice what they said about the "hole" beneath the dam gate? Water freezes from the top down. Where do you go if you're a fish? You go as deep as you can. (Especially if you're a bottom feeder like a catfish, or in this case, a drum fish.

so again, if so many of them were killed by these circumstances, wouldn't similar circumstances produce a smaller, but very similar outcome? In other words, if this killed 400,000 drum fish, shouldn't at least a few thousand die each time they open the flood gate?

Climate, disease, human accidents. Not familiar with the other cases but I can assure you there is a very plausible and mundane explanation for each. You just have to search for the report from the proper investigative authority and not just something you find posted to youtube or whatever.

Still waiting your explanation. Unless you, like me, don't know. Cows? Seals? Crabs? 2 million fish? Bring on the guesses!

Please feel free to scientifically prove these flaws. We're all waiting. There's a lot of things in this world that can cause blunt trauma. Try hitting water at 100mph, it's pretty darn blunt at that speed and it's a liquid. The ground is even more so. Don't forget that two bodies speeding towards each other tend to be pretty blunt too.

what causes blunt trauma to thousands of birds over several miles at the same time?


Let me reiterate:

I don't know what happened to all of these animals. I'm confident in myself enough to admit when I don't know the answer to something. I don't see the guesses proposed by scientists as being a likely cause to the events. I've provided the reasons behind my skepticism. I really am curious as to what you think happened to the other animals, I'm not just saying that to be a d**k or anything haha

 

[Frisco]

Well.. hmm... (non-scientific, layman's speculative nonsense.. er, theory coming up ).

Birds and fish have something in common: they basically do everything together, in schools and flocks. They eat together, they mate together, they migrate together, and it appears to me that sometimes they die together in large groups, too.

When science minded humans attempt to explain why birds and fish do any of those things together all of the time, it usually revolves around survival of the school or flock, not much about the individuals but the whole group.

I'm wondering if the mass deaths were approached on a different schema altogether, the schema of those large numbers of deaths occurring for the survival of the species, scientists might come up with some fresh paths of information to follow.

 

[chimphappyhour]

^^ I did explain why

Because you can't wrap your head around the given explanations by the experts? Is that what you're saying? Because that's how you read.

A hypothesis is, by definition an educated guess. The definition states it is a "proposed" explanation, and goes on to say "a mere assumption or guess".

There, I fixed the bolding you seemed to have looked over. Yeah, the part where explanation is part of the definition of hypothesis you just put out there for us. Like I said, a hypothesis is an explanation.

What I know is this:

• for birds to die of blunt trauma, they need to actually hit something. If you watched the video, most of the birds are laying out in the open literally hundreds of them are within feet of each other. What did they hit? Hitting each other would not kill so many of them, and the odds that that many would die from ''running into things" seems highly unlikely to me.

Just because it seems unlikely to you doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen. I have a little experiment for you. Go out into an empty field with a friend of yours. Have your friend stand still and run at them as fast as you can and see how you feel after that. Now, do it again but this time, you and your friend will both run at each other as fast as possible. Tell us what the result is and remember, don't cheat. You might want to have a third friend who knows first aid handy. Just a handy tip.

Ok, so that would be two humans. Even the fastest human is pretty darn slow compared to the slowest birds in flight. Chances are, you and your friend would only be able to do 13, maybe 15 mph, each. So that means you're doing at most, 30mph. These birds can easily exceed that on their own, let's say about 40mph. Two birds in full on "fight or flight" response flying into each other would be about 80mph. Right now, the top speed of a human on a bicycle is roughly just over 80mph. If you stepped out in front of that person, what do you think the result of that would be? I'll give you a hint, people die from being hit by bicyclists moving much slower than that. Oh, and birds' bodies are much more fragile than ours. Just a few facts for you to mull over there.

Oh! And one more thing! About that video... maybe you need to watch it a little closer. There were A LOT of objects for the birds to fly into. The footage clearly shows a treed residential neighborhood.

• Fireworks? Okay, if that's the case then why don't hundreds of birds die every time we set off fireworks?

Again, this gets down to observing and knowing behaviors. I'm going to make you think for this answer. It'll do you some good. Ever observe blackbirds when the weather gets colder versus when it is warmer? Heck, you don't even need to do that. What happens with any population, organism, material, whatever when it gets colder and what happens when it gets hot?

And again, what makes you think it doesn't happen? Because you didn't read about it on the internet? Spend a lot of time outside and you'll see plenty of dead birds.

Just so we're clear: you support the theory that someone set off some fireworks, 3,500 red wing blackbirds over several miles were frightened and took flight, smacking into each other and then falling out of the sky, dead. Right?

Several miles? How many miles? I've not seen "several miles". Who stated several miles? Please, at some point you really should show that you know how to do some sort of credible research. You have yet to show any ability to do any research.

And as I said just above, the video footage quite clearly shows this is not a wide open area as you claim but yes, I will say that some of the birds probably did die from running into each other. It is very plausible for that to happen as I indicated above. Don't forget, your number of 3500 (I do believe the official count is higher) only includes the unlucky birds. There were very likely far more that didn't die. It wouldn't be unlikely for there to have been over 10,000 birds in the area.

so again, if so many of them were killed by these circumstances, wouldn't similar circumstances produce a smaller, but very similar outcome? In other words, if this killed 400,000 drum fish, shouldn't at least a few thousand die each time they open the flood gate?

Well, the number they provided was 83,000. So, less than 100K. And again, a lot will depend on conditions. First of all, who says fish don't die at other times that the dam gates are opened? Are you assuming that because you haven't heard about it that it doesn't happen? Secondly, seasonal behavior and conditions for any given season will have to be taken into account. A cold and wet winter will yield much different results than a warm dry one. Which means you change the circumstances. You really should take some science classes.

Still waiting your explanation. Unless you, like me, don't know. Cows? Seals? Crabs? 2 million fish? Bring on the guesses!

Show me you know how to do some actual research on your own. So far, all you've shown me is that you know how to say, "I don't know". Heck, I know how to say that much in six different languages!

And do you have links to these other cases or are you just shoveling out what you saw on that video? I'm going to go out on a limb here and make an educated guess that it is the latter. But hey, link them if you got them. (Just make sure you do some research to make sure they are truly "mysterious".)

If you pay close attention to the video, you can tell the most likely outcomes to some of the cases. (Especially since in one section they forgot to edit the Maryland piece so the death was more "mysterious". The answer was right on there, cold. You know, climate induced. Hey, and look at what season they're carting those cattle out in! Winter! Want to take a guess as to what probably killed them?)

No, I'm afraid to say that you've been duped by sensationalist reporting and shoddy editing. Pay VERY CLOSE attention to how that video was thrown together and how little actual information they give you. Heck, the Fox News footage even has a very well respected scientist sitting in it. How much of his audio did you hear? Sorry to say this but you've been suckered in by media fear mongering, hook, line and sinker.

what causes blunt trauma to thousands of birds over several miles at the same time?

Gee, I do believe I already addressed this. It was aliens in their little space ship. Nah, just kidding.

Let me reiterate:

I don't know what happened to all of these animals. I'm confident in myself enough to admit when I don't know the answer to something. I don't see the guesses proposed by scientists as being a likely cause to the events. I've provided the reasons behind my skepticism.

You really haven't though. Saying the reason for your skepticism is because you don't know?

I really am curious as to what you think happened to the other animals, I'm not just saying that to be a d**k or anything haha

As for the other animals, please feel free to do some work for yourself. Try to find the cases if you can and then do a little checking on those stories. I think you'll be very disappointed in the "journalism" piece you linked to in the OP.

 

[tommy_ed]

Because you can't wrap your head around the given explanations by the experts? Is that what you're saying? Because that's how you read.

No. I perfectly understand what they're saying. All I'm saying (repeatedly) is that I don't think, given the frequency, scale, and diversity of these incidents, that it is what happened.

There, I fixed the bolding you seemed to have looked over. Yeah, the part where explanation is part of the definition of hypothesis you just put out there for us. Like I said, a hypothesis is an explanation.

explanation - a statement or account that makes something clear.

a proposed explanation is described as a mere assumption or guess. This could actually be seen either way, so it's really a moot argument.

Just because it seems unlikely to you doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen. I have a little experiment for you. Go out into an empty field with a friend of yours. Have your friend stand still and run at them as fast as you can and see how you feel after that. Now, do it again but this time, you and your friend will both run at each other as fast as possible. Tell us what the result is and remember, don't cheat. You might want to have a third friend who knows first aid handy. Just a handy tip.

haha. one would assume if the birds were crowded/clustered enough for this scenario to be the case, they would be dodging other birds, definitely not going top speed. a more accurate guess would be around 15-20 mph. And even then, two birds would have to collide almost directly head on to account for any force hard enough to kill them, which even then is a stretch. Let alone, 3,500 of them! The ones that did run into each other would most likely hit on the sides, or close to that.
Also, like I said. If this was the case we would literally hear of hundreds of cases each fourth of july. It would be well known that setting off fireworks kills large groups of birds. But that is not the case...

Oh! And one more thing! About that video... maybe you need to watch it a little closer. There were A LOT of objects for the birds to fly into. The footage clearly shows a treed residential neighborhood.

in some areas there were, others were in fields.

Several miles? How many miles? I've not seen "several miles". Who stated several miles? Please, at some point you really should show that you know how to do some sort of credible research. You have yet to show any ability to do any research.

i thought i had read several miles in an article when i first found out about it. it was a one-mile stretch. As for your research, you've shown 2 links to some sites you found on the interwebzzz lol

First of all, who says fish don't die at other times that the dam gates are opened? Are you assuming that because you haven't heard about it that it doesn't happen? Secondly, seasonal behavior and conditions for any given season will have to be taken into account. A cold and wet winter will yield much different results than a warm dry one. Which means you change the circumstances. You really should take some science classes.

no I'm assuming that because it would most certainly be mentioned during your "scientific explanation" if that were the case. And first of all, I'm not seeing 84,000 anywhere, it's all saying 100,000. Second, there are about three articles with three different explanations. So much for your concrete scientific explanation...

And do you have links to these other cases or are you just shoveling out what you saw on that video? I'm going to go out on a limb here and make an educated guess that it is the latter. But hey, link them if you got them.

Seals
Crabs
Jackdaws
More Fish
And More Fish
Yep, More Fish
Bats
More Birds
More Fish
Hey, More Fish
Still more Fish
What do you know, Fish
Fish
Fishies!
Penguins

Shall I keep going???

If you pay close attention to the video, you can tell the most likely outcomes to some of the cases.

this seems like very poor methods to reach a hypothesis

You really haven't though. Saying the reason for your skepticism is because you don't know?

I think you're being coy with me. I've explained a couple of times. No the reason for my skepticism is not because I "don't know". I don't feel like re-typing it so I'll just quote it for you from my previous posts:

So for no reason THREE THOUSAND AND FIVE HUNDRED birds ALL ran into objects and died? So how were so many lying out in the open, with nothing around them which they could have hit? Have they thought the "blunt trauma" evidence they came up with is from the birds hitting the ground?

it's not because I don't know, it's because this explanation doesn't logically add up given the scale and diversity of the animal deaths worldwide, or even in this particular scenario. I've given multiple reasons.

Now like i said, when you reply to this, try to just remain calm and debate the topic at hand without getting upset. Debate the post, not the poster.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Every year, without fail, around November 24th or 25th, turkeys die by the tens of thousands. Be they wild turkeys or turkeys kept by caring pet owners like my friend Mr. Norbest, for example.

It does not matter, these lovely birds die off like clockwork.

Care to explain that? Perhaps it is RF generated by excessive use of cell phones? I am not sure what happens, but it happens.

 

[Frisco]

Perhaps the elimination, or at least regulation, of small, sharp hatchets would impact the mass deaths of the turkeys each late November (in the U.S.).

 

[tommy_ed]

Every year, without fail, around November 24th or 25th, turkeys die by the tens of thousands. Be they wild turkeys or turkeys kept by caring pet owners like my friend Mr. Norbest, for example.

It does not matter, these lovely birds die off like clockwork.

Care to explain that? Perhaps it is RF generated by excessive use of cell phones? I am not sure what happens, but it happens.

lol the world may never know

 

[chimphappyhour]

No. I perfectly understand what they're saying. All I'm saying (repeatedly) is that I don't think, given the frequency, scale, and diversity of these incidents, that it is what happened.

Then you don't understand. Maybe it'll help if you go back and go over this thread and the various links with the last science teacher you had, that might help you. I'll explain here in a bit as to why I'm saying you're not getting this.

explanation - a statement or account that makes something clear.

a proposed explanation is described as a mere assumption or guess. This could actually be seen either way, so it's really a moot argument.

It's not a moot argument. You said a hypothesis is not and explanation and yet the very definition of a hypothesis is that it is an explanation. You even said so yourself but the problem is, you don't understand what you've said. Which really calls into question your whole stance. Which is really what I've been questioning in the above quote and response. You haven't shown any clarity in even your own "belief" or whatever it is.

haha. one would assume if the birds were crowded/clustered enough for this scenario to be the case, they would be dodging other birds, definitely not going top speed. a more accurate guess would be around 15-20 mph. And even then, two birds would have to collide almost directly head on to account for any force hard enough to kill them, which even then is a stretch. Let alone, 3,500 of them! The ones that did run into each other would most likely hit on the sides, or close to that.

See, the problems is that you're assuming but you have yet to show us that you have any clue what you're talking about. You haven't shown us anything other than that you don't know. Assumptions from someone who doesn't know are worth... well, nothing. This whole quote from you above it worth nothing as an argumment. The flight speeds I've given are very realistic. The scenario is very realistic. It is further proof that you have zero understanding of what is entailed in this.

Also, like I said. If this was the case we would literally hear of hundreds of cases each fourth of july. It would be well known that setting off fireworks kills large groups of birds. But that is not the case...

And this shows that you didn't understand the question I posed to you about what happens when things a hot and when they are cold. When things are hot, they expand or spread out. When things get cold, they contract or group together. This is very elementry science. Do you notice how the Arkansas and Sweden bird cases attributed to fireworks scares both occurred in winter?

in some areas there were, others were in fields.

Fields? Please, let me know where you saw these fields? I've watched your "mind blowing" video and all I've seen is a residential neighborhood.

i thought i had read several miles in an article when i first found out about it. it was a one-mile stretch. As for your research, you've shown 2 links to some sites you found on the interwebzzz lol

Ok, this is where it is really going to get fun. See, it isn't several miles. I'd suggest you go back and rewatch the video and read the articles and really pay attention this time. I'm serious when I say you've been duped by a piece of really bad "journalism". In fact, before you go sit down and discuss all of this with the last science teacher you had, I highly suggest you go sit down with this "mind blowing" video of yours with a journalism teacher. See what they think. I think you'll find the only thing mind blowing about it is that it was even allowed to be made by a national news group.

As for the two links I gave you. Those two links were from the USGS and the AGFC. They aren't fly-by-night websites. Those two groups have to answer to the public AND more importantly, their peers in the scientific community. If they get something wrong, they will be called out on it by their own peers very quickly. Are you sure say, "some sites you found on the interwebzzz lol"? Really, you haven't any room to laugh. Like I've pointed out, you've offered us nothing.

no I'm assuming that because it would most certainly be mentioned during your "scientific explanation" if that were the case. And first of all, I'm not seeing 84,000 anywhere, it's all saying 100,000. Second, there are about three articles with three different explanations. So much for your concrete scientific explanation...

That's because no one said 84,000. You really need to spend more time reading and thinking before you reply. I'll give you a hint as to where I got my number. You might want to actually look at those two links I provided. As for your three different articles, where are they? When were they written? Who is cited? Again, you offer us nothing which leaves your statement "So much for your concrete scientific explanation" as looking quite silly.

Seals
Crabs
Jackdaws
More Fish
And More Fish
Yep, More Fish
Bats
More Birds
More Fish
Hey, More Fish
Still more Fish
What do you know, Fish
Fish
Fishies!
Penguins

Shall I keep going???

Interesting but I do believe this is what I said:

And do you have links to these other cases or are you just shoveling out what you saw on that video? I'm going to go out on a limb here and make an educated guess that it is the latter. But hey, link them if you got them. (Just make sure you do some research to make sure they are truly "mysterious".)

Did you do that? No. Read all of my above quote then reread those links you posted. All you've done is to support the position you seem to not believe. Yes, these things happen all the time and yes, they can be explained. Nothing odd at all. Oh, and jungleapocalypse as a lead off link was truly hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.

this seems like very poor methods to reach a hypothesis

Like I said, you need some science classes. You really do not understand what you're talking about. Observation is a part of the scientific process.

I think you're being coy with me. I've explained a couple of times. No the reason for my skepticism is not because I "don't know". I don't feel like re-typing it so I'll just quote it for you from my previous posts:
it's not because I don't know, it's because this explanation doesn't logically add up given the scale and diversity of the animal deaths worldwide, or even in this particular scenario. I've given multiple reasons.

Your quote didn't transfer over and I'm not going to chase it since all I have to do is scroll up but again, you really need to go back and rewatch and reread as you seem to keep missing the key points that this isn't just out in the open. Drive up highway 35 from your hometown, past the hills. There is open space out there. The video that you keep looking at isn't open. There are houses, trees, light poles, probably power lines and poles, mailboxes, cars... there were a lot of things for them to hit plus the rest of the flock. Just because you can't comprehend it doesn't mean it isn't possible. It's very possible.

Now like i said, when you reply to this, try to just remain calm and debate the topic at hand without getting upset. Debate the post, not the poster.

Unfortunately, you've put yourself into a position where you are a part of the debate. You yourself have made me a part of the debate. To tell you the truth, this doesn't actually qualify as a debate. For it to be a debate, you would have to offer up something on your end in the way of support. You haven't done that. You really do need to go back to school or pay closer attention if you are still in school. You just might learn something.

Oh, and you really haven't a clue. I can't be upset, I'm too busy laughing.

 

[Frisco]

Well.. I guess I have caught myself laughing a time or two also, here.

But Public Service Announcements and warnings and Moderator edited posts haven't stopped the (sometimes veiled, sometimes not) insult slinging mixed in with the debate. It is now getting directly personal between you two, the thread could well be done via PM instead of here in the Lounge or anywhere else in the forums.

 

[Frisco]

Well, the participants have requested another chance in here.. :


From Tommy_Ed:

mass animal deaths thread

AWWWW come on frisco! lol

give us another chance to play nice

I've PMed chimp, so our little back and forth debate will stop. i think this could be a great thread! i have a couple theories to present to it, such as maybe a global climate shift or something? i think it's very interesting. So what do you say, can it come out and play?

-----------------------------


.. what the heck.

 

[tommy_ed]

well as I was saying, I don't really buy some of the theories for these animal deaths, (two in particular) and at first I just really didn't know what it could be.
However, after some more research into the individual cases I have a half theory of sorts. Most of the instances, (almost all the fish cases) are attributed to very quick changes in water temperature. Most of these cases are birds and fish. The couple of other ones (cows for instance) have been deemed food poisoning and things of that nature. Seeing as how these things do happen from time to time, we can maybe assumethat the individual cases of poisoning, etc. are a separate issue from the birds and fish.

What if something was happening to the earth- a major climate shift, something disrupting the birds' migratory instincts, etc? As I've admitted I'm not a science major, so this is, as I mentioned, a half theory. I do know the earth and its climates are constantly fluctuating. Thoughts?

 

[Member138406]

Was probably HAARP.