Update: 2.1 OS upgrade for Rogers HTC Magic+

[drifter136]

I was using your statistics:
Vodafone = $72 billion in revenue and 347 million subscribers
Rogers Wireless = $4 billion in revenue and about 6 million subscribers

Some simple math shows:
Vodafone makes $207 in revenue per subscriber
Rogers Wireless makes $666 in revenue per subscriber

Thats over 3X more revenue per subscriber. Not too shabby. If I wanted to start my own cellular company guess where I'd rather setup shop?

Okay, it's clear you have ZERO understanding of economic principles. Here's the part you're not understanding:

Revenue = income. NOT profit. Revenue is raw income. It is not money made, it's money coming in. There's a BIG difference there. For revenue to become profit, you have to remove all the costs involved in bringing that revenue back. IE your hardware including upkeep, towers, staffing, etc.

Example:
You spend $5 on a toy at the toy store.
The toy store's REVENUE is $5.
The toy store paid the supplier $2 for the toy.
Of all the toys in the store, approximately $1 in the sale of each covers advertising.
$5 revenue - $2 cost of toy - $1 advertising = $2 profit.

What this means is that Vodaphone, covering roughly the same geographical area as Rogers, has 58 times as many subscribers to spread those costs over. Rogers still needs all the same equipment and just as many towers, and the same maintenance staff to maintain all that equipment and towers as Vodaphone does.

This is what sconnelly and I are trying to explain. Vodaphone is making FAR more money per subscriber than Rogers is, despite the fact that the plans may be cheaper. This is why Vodaphone has their name all over Formula 1 racing cars (a sport renowned for throwing money around), while Rogers sponsors 2nd rate pro tennis tournaments.

 

[GreatBigDog]

Just FYI, RogersMary sent me a DM on Twitter today telling me she would have some "info" to announce some time in the next two days (I assume she meant including today).

I asked her for clarification, but she said she couldn't.

We DO know the following to be true unless Mary is lying, or has been lied to:

1. It is true that Rogers received the update from HTC.
2. It is true that Rogers discovered a bug and sent it back to HTC.
3. It is true that Rogers received the updated revised from HTC and approved it internally at Rogers last week.
4. It is true that Rogers sent the approved update to Google for approval last week.
5. It is true that, according to Mary, after Google approves it, it goes back to HTC and it is up to HTC to announce and handle to OTA roll-out.

So we can assume that the "info" she has to announce is one of the following:

1. Google has approved it, but we don't know when it's coming.
2. Google has approved it, and OTA update will start on xx/xx/xxxx.
3. Google has not approved it, now we have to do y.

I'll let you know if/when I hear more.

I find myself wondering if the "Bug" that was found in the ROM is the security hole that allows the "exploid script" rooting method to work and the ROM was sent back to specifically patch this security hole.

I'm fairly certain that using the European RUU to break the perfected SPL will no longer work after the 2.1 update. Since the SPL in this update ROM will be newer than the European one, you'll get an error that it's an older version and can't be installed.

I was sure that the exploid rooting method would be still available after the update but since learning that the update went back to HTC, I'm not so sure anymore. Anyway, we'll see what happens when people try using either method after applying the update.

 

[mjschmidt]

@GBD: well, hopefully it won't be long before it's rooted anyway.

@All: I've been corresponding with Mary via Twitter and email, pushing for more info on the update. As far as I know now, the update appears to have been approved by Google and (I'm assuming, because...) it has gone back to HTC. We are now waiting for info from HTC on when the update will start.

REGARDING WHOSE FAULT IT IS...

MagicAndroid has started a new thread here: Android Updates, Who's Responsible?

Please be considerate and move the debate there, so we can keep this thread for info on the actual update availability. We don't want any announcements from Mary getting lost in all the posts.

 

[j12n]

Okay, it's clear you have ZERO understanding of economic principles. Here's the part you're not understanding:

Revenue = income. NOT profit. Revenue is raw income. It is not money made, it's money coming in. There's a BIG difference there. For revenue to become profit, you have to remove all the costs involved in bringing that revenue back. IE your hardware including upkeep, towers, staffing, etc.

Example:
You spend $5 on a toy at the toy store.
The toy store's REVENUE is $5.
The toy store paid the supplier $2 for the toy.
Of all the toys in the store, approximately $1 in the sale of each covers advertising.
$5 revenue - $2 cost of toy - $1 advertising = $2 profit.

What this means is that Vodaphone, covering roughly the same geographical area as Rogers, has 58 times as many subscribers to spread those costs over. Rogers still needs all the same equipment and just as many towers, and the same maintenance staff to maintain all that equipment and towers as Vodaphone does.

This is what sconnelly and I are trying to explain. Vodaphone is making FAR more money per subscriber than Rogers is, despite the fact that the plans may be cheaper. This is why Vodaphone has their name all over Formula 1 racing cars (a sport renowned for throwing money around), while Rogers sponsors 2nd rate pro tennis tournaments.

You are correct, so lets try this again with Net Income:

Vodafone: 8,645B Net Income 10/03
Rogers: 1,478B Net Income 09/12

Again simple math shows:
Vodafone makes $24 in net income per subscriber
Rogers Wireless makes $246 in net income per subscriber

So actually Rogers customers are 10X more profitable.... wow!

I get the scales of economy blah blah blah. But if Rogers wants to have Branded/custom phones then they need to support them. If they don't have the resources to manage them then ship stock devices. I don't think users will care if the device has a Google logo rather then a Rogers logo - do you?

 

[vikingisson]

Why are we getting economics lessons and population density comparisons? BTW, someone asked to show a single (was in caps I think) small density or low population country with lower rates. Um, how about most any country you want to pick. None of this is an issue or an excuse regarding an OS update. It doesn't prevent any of them from doing the job of providing what the customer wants. Some do it and some don't despite any spreadsheet or finger pointing. The customer shouldn't need to worry about that.

For those that are rooted then we don't have an issue nor should we expect any update from Rogers. Just do it like we always do whenever you want. I don't know why anyone would take the risk of flashing back to stock just to get the official ROM unless that's what you really want but we're already on a better ROM.

My lesson from long ago is that if I want a "good user experience" then I'll buy my phone outright, unlocked, and flashable to an OS that does what I want, when I want it. Otherwise I can only hound the carrier for these simple things and hope they will eventually do some of them. But all these complicated explanations and numbers mean nothing.

 

[mjschmidt]

REGARDING WHOSE FAULT IT IS, the Economics debate, etc...

MagicAndroid has started a new thread here: Android Updates, Who's Responsible?

Please be considerate and move the debate there, so we can keep this thread for info on the actual update availability. We don't want any announcements from Mary getting lost in all the posts.

 

[thewhitewizard]

yesterday, it was just the sound of crickets chirping...

...right now i can hear the body collector from Monty Pythons ringing his bell yelling 'Bring out yer dead!'

Sept 02 and still nothing. wow. Any news mary? anything at all?

One question i'd really like an answer to because i really dont understand is this:

If Google made the OS, and its free to all the handset manufacs. to use as they see fit, why do they have to submit it to Google for approval? What is there to 'approve' ? Is it that the maufacs (and carriers) actually rewrite Androids code? or do they just add a supplemental layer of code (like an extension or theme) that utilizes the features of Android? If it is the latter, why does Google have to approve anything? And if its the former, why would Google allow that? Im just dumbfounded that it had to go back to Google when my damn Magic could already be using 2.1 right now..

Very frustrating.

 

[KyleB]

yesterday, it was just the sound of crickets chirping...

...right now i can hear the body collector from Monty Pythons ringing his bell yelling 'Bring out yer dead!'

Sept 02 and still nothing. wow. Any news mary? anything at all?

One question i'd really like an answer to because i really dont understand is this:

If Google made the OS, and its free to all the handset manufacs. to use as they see fit, why do they have to submit it to Google for approval? What is there to 'approve' ? Is it that the maufacs (and carriers) actually rewrite Androids code? or do they just add a supplemental layer of code (like an extension or theme) that utilizes the features of Android? If it is the latter, why does Google have to approve anything? And if its the former, why would Google allow that? Im just dumbfounded that it had to go back to Google when my damn Magic could already be using 2.1 right now..

Very frustrating.

I'm wondering if it had to go Google because Rogers puts some of their own software on there.

Anyone?

RogersMary, any updates yet?

 

[GreatBigDog]

yesterday, it was just the sound of crickets chirping...

...right now i can hear the body collector from Monty Pythons ringing his bell yelling 'Bring out yer dead!'

Sept 02 and still nothing. wow. Any news mary? anything at all?

One question i'd really like an answer to because i really dont understand is this:

If Google made the OS, and its free to all the handset manufacs. to use as they see fit, why do they have to submit it to Google for approval? What is there to 'approve' ? Is it that the maufacs (and carriers) actually rewrite Androids code? or do they just add a supplemental layer of code (like an extension or theme) that utilizes the features of Android? If it is the latter, why does Google have to approve anything? And if its the former, why would Google allow that? Im just dumbfounded that it had to go back to Google when my damn Magic could already be using 2.1 right now..

Very frustrating.

Some apps that are included on the Rom are Google proprietary code. Apps like the Market, Maps, Search etc... are not core Android and as such, in order to have Google's permission to include them in the Rom, Google want's to be able to approve the implementation.

gbd

 

[schuchwun]

off topic i know but some how i thought you were canadian lol.

I WANT MY DAMN 2.1... i should have just waited and gotten the mini x10 lol...

 

[Zeroexe43]

Seriously guys? I dont see how any of you can be this stupid...

We are the only place in the ****ing world who has a htc magic that isnt past 1.5

Yeah this is HTC fault because every other ****ing phone has 1.6 or higher, nice logic

We are the only country who has 3 ****ing years of contracts.

When you buy the phone you expect updates, i dono about you but i still have 2 years left on my contract and to know they refuse to update it past 2.1 is horrible.

If anything we should get more updates

And to all you rooting butt kissers, I dont give a shit if i can hack my phone to get 2.2 Why do i have to do that? i want an official release, its not a big request, if anything you should be on our side because you know the phone can handle 2.2 and its just ****ing rogers that wont update it

If you let them get away with stuff like this they will walk all over us like they already do because of the ****ed up monopoly they have in canada

If im paying twice the rates Americans do for a year longer then them i should at least have the same updates

PS: its September 3rd... where is my ****ing update?

 

[vikingisson]

Seriously guys? I dont see how any of you can be this stupid...

etc.....

whoa there sparky. You aren't helping one little bit. Go yell at Rogers.
You don't have to root the phone if you are that much against it or just that stubborn. But instead of getting myself into such a hissy fit over the sad state of telecommunications in this country I 'kiss butt' and flash whatever I want on it. And since I don't like the 3 year contracts either I can choose the other option of no contract and no contract phone.

And this part I don't want to argue about, your numbers about every single carrier's Magic running 2.x except us are wrong. And we don't pay anywhere near double the U.S., both of our countries pay way too much and have varying degrees of crippled devices and services. The telco industry is broken in many ways here so let's not make stuff up. The best I can do is to do it myself and not get that upset and ignorant over it. That simply won't get you anywhere.

 

[Zeroexe43]

I would yell at rogers if i knew they would listen. Im not against rooting, i just dont see why i should. I didnt say every carrier was past 2.X i said past 1.5 and its true, Google doesnt even make apps for 1.5 anymore because the only devices that have it are the Chinese knock off stuff and us. We pay sooo much more for our plans. Sprint has the everything plan for like 60-70 bucks or something, and im paying 90 bucks and the only thing thats unlimited is texting. our data plans are horrible and for a country almost literately living on the border they charge a lot for roaming. I live in the states and Canada so i see the difference, its huge, night and day. They dont treat customers like this and they dont charge customers like this.

Im sorry to get so angry but when your getting spit on by a company your paying out your ass for you get a little angry.

 

[vikingisson]

So instead you yell at us and call us stupid? I'm not the one stuck on 1.5 having physco fits of anger. If you want to buy your phone under their contract then you either have to play by their unacceptable rules or grow up and figure out a better way to get what you want.

 

[GreatBigDog]

Seriously guys? I dont see how any of you can be this stupid...

WTF dude, If you're pissed with Rogers don't come in here calling the rest of us names

We are the only place in the ****ing world who has a htc magic that isnt past 1.5

I don't think that you're correct in this assumption, do you have any proof of this?

Yeah this is HTC fault because every other ****ing phone has 1.6 or higher, nice logic

LG EVE is still on 1.5. Probably a few others as well

We are the only country who has 3 ****ing years of contracts.

You also have the option of 2yr, 1yr, or outright purchase of the phone.

When you buy the phone you expect updates, i dono about you but i still have 2 years left on my contract and to know they refuse to update it past 2.1 is horrible.

If HTC makes a 2.2 ROM for the Magic then you're right. Rogers should be working with HTC to ensure that a version is available for our phones. However if HTC chooses not to produce a 2.2 Rom for the Magic then tough luck for us.

If anything we should get more updates

I agree up to a point here, the Magic hardware is perfectly capable of running 2.2 (No Flash 10 or Google Earth). We know from the leaked specs that the next Android version (3.0 Gingerbread) will be mostly a UI update and that the Magic's hardware will not meet the minimum specifications of the OS. In that case, I wouldn't and don't expect an update.

And to all you rooting butt kissers, I dont give a shit if i can hack my phone to get 2.2 Why do i have to do that? i want an official release, its not a big request, if anything you should be on our side because you know the phone can handle 2.2 and its just ****ing rogers that wont update it

I think that Dell or the Future Shop would find it a big request if you expected them to update your laptop for free with each release of Microsoft Windows. I know that it's a little different with our phones as the OS is open source, but the overlay that HTC puts on it is not. Neither are the drivers that HTC has be build to interface with the hardware.

What we actually need is federal legislation to require a minimum support period after the wireless providers stop selling devices.

And it would also be a great benefit if there was a way to purchase unlocked rootable phones somewhere other than wireless providers. I don't know why the Manufactures will not allow big box retailers to carry their devices without carrier branding. Maybe once the computer manufactures really get into producing mobile devices we'll see that happening.

And yes, I'm a butt kissing rooter

If you let them get away with stuff like this they will walk all over us like they already do because of the ****ed up monopoly they have in canada

You're always free to move to Bell, Telus, Wind or any of the other startup providers. We have what we have, the CRTC is not going to help us. They will only do there best to protect the wireless carriers from foreign competition, which is what is needed.

If im paying twice the rates Americans do for a year longer then them i should at least have the same updates

I don't think that the difference is quite what you're making it out to be and the HTC Magic in the USA (MT3G) is a Google experience phone. Google takes care of creating and providing updates for it. our phone the HTC Magic is not maintained by Google, it's HTC's responsibility of maintaining it.

PS: its September 3rd... where is my ****ing update?

Yes, where is it?

 

[mjschmidt]

REGARDING WHOSE FAULT IT IS, the Economics debate, etc...

MagicAndroid has started a new thread here: Android Updates, Who's Responsible?

Please be considerate and move the debate there, so we can keep this thread for info on the actual update availability. We don't want any announcements from Mary getting lost in all the posts.

 

[sconnelly]

REGARDING WHOSE FAULT IT IS, the Economics debate, etc...

MagicAndroid has started a new thread here: Android Updates, Who's Responsible?

Please be considerate and move the debate there, so we can keep this thread for info on the actual update availability. We don't want any announcements from Mary getting lost in all the posts.

Correct, that last outburst should have gone into the new thread. Quite frankly, I am surprised it wasn't just ignored. I've grown tired of trying to explain how all this telecom stuff works.

But you know, Rogers certainly isn't helping by estimating release dates, then when those dates approach and pass, they remain quiet. It just pisses subscribers off; even if Rogers really has little control over much of the process.

Sometimes the marketing devision of any company can be its own worst enemy.

BTW, I am all for free speech, but perhaps there should be a minimum maturity for this forum? You don't have OS 2.x on your Magic? Is there any reason to explode over that? There is little worse than people who go literally crazy over relatively unimportant things in life. Seriously, you don't have anything better to occupy your time with?

 

[mjschmidt]

BTW, I am all for free speech, but perhaps there should be a minimum maturity for this forum? You don't have OS 2.x on your Magic? Is there any reason to explode over that? There is little worse than people who go literally crazy over relatively unimportant things in life. Seriously, you don't have anything better to occupy your time with?

That's why there are moderators. If anyone feels a post is abusive, or inappropriate, any user can report it to a moderator or admin, who will check it, and make the appropriate decision.

Now, before this thread gets more off topic, and we start debating free speech, etc, let's keep this thread on topic, discussing the update that should (hopefully) be coming soon.

 

[bigfoot13442]

I would yell at rogers if i knew they would listen.

I yelled at them for an hour on Sept 1st. And all they did was blame HTC. That and tell me to buy a new phone with the update already on it.
I just laughed at them.
I'm not paying for something (the update) that Rogers promised to supply me with.
I totally agree. Rogers needs to start listening and update our phones.
I shouldn't have to void my warranty. I should get the customer service that I deserve.

I did end up rooting my phone and installing CM6. I figured that with the official update to 2.1 will come another perfected SPL and didn't want to chance it since Rogers stated they wouldn't be providing further updates. Which is very displeasing.

 

[sconnelly]

I did end up rooting my phone and installing CM6. I figured that with the official update to 2.1 will come another perfected SPL and didn't want to chance it since Rogers stated they wouldn't be providing further updates. Which is very displeasing.

Beyond OS 2.2, they are no further updates until Gingerbread. Rogers probably does not see a good business case for only a .1 difference update; even though the differences between 2.1 and 2.2 are pretty significant.

In regards to OS 2.2, the HTC Magic is not within minimum specifications to accept this update. Seriously, I really hope you don't blame Rogers for that!

 

[vikingisson]

In regards to OS 2.2, the HTC Magic is not within minimum specifications to accept this update. Seriously, I really hope you don't blame Rogers for that!

I don't expect the 2.2 update either but the Magic we have can certainly run it and run better than it does on 2.1. You don't want to run animations and live wallpaper but it runs well. It is the fluffy things like LWP that would keep them from doing it if they didn't have their usual reasons.

 

[bigfoot13442]

In regards to OS 2.2, the HTC Magic is not within minimum specifications to accept this update. Seriously, I really hope you don't blame Rogers for that!

I'm not really blaming either of them for any of this. They are doing a good job at blaming each other.

All I want is for someone to own up and take responsibility for this. It is someone's responsibility to push out the update and it seems as though this responsibility is falling on the customer.

I don't expect the 2.2 update either but the Magic we have can certainly run it ...

Agreed. It works way better than the 1.5 I was stuck with before I updated it.

 

[mpg187]

Ya I could root and get 2.1 but I shouldn't have to. I paid for an extended warranty and don't wanna lose it...

And it sucks that I can't use Google Goggles, Rockplayer, Google Earth, and most importantly, flash. I heard that Android can do flash so it's kinda annoying having a device that can use flash but doesn't because the software needs to be updated. I am not gonna get really pissed off over this, but I would like an update...

 

[GreatBigDog]

Ya I could root and get 2.1 but I shouldn't have to. I paid for an extended warranty and don't wanna lose it...

And it sucks that I can't use Google Goggles, Rockplayer, Google Earth, and most importantly, flash. I heard that Android can do flash so it's kinda annoying having a device that can use flash but doesn't because the software needs to be updated. I am not gonna get really pissed off over this, but I would like an update...

Absolutly NO update will give you flash 10 on your Magic. HTC/Rogers could update the phone to Android 2.2 and still it won't work.

Adobe has produced flash 10 to work with the ARMv7 instruction set, which is hardware related to the cpu. The Magic's cpu utilizes the ARMv6 instruction set so flash will not work on them. Incidentally this also means that Google Earth won't work on them either.

 

[Zeroexe43]

Sorry to explode and be immature but what i am saying is not ridiculous im just going about it the wrong way, its when fellow android users stick up for rogers that pisses me off.

Look, Its not HTCs fault, we could have gotten the regular HTC magics like the rest of the world, but Rogers made their own custom version of it which means they are responsible. If we had a regular htc magic we could have gotten 1.6 no problem.

They said august... its September 4th and going back to University tomorrow, i wanted this done before i went back.

To great big dog, show me a HTC magic that still on 1.5 besides canada. or Dream.

We have to get three years to get the same deals Americans get.

They are still selling the phone right now and they are putting outdated software on it, everyone knows the magic can run 2.2 and infact makes the phone run even better. if rogers wants to sell a phone to someone right now they need to go to HTC and demand 2.2

I dont expect 3.0 i dont think anyone does.

Rogers is not doing anything and it seems like they are expecting HTC to come forward and do everything. Rogers needs to at least say hey we are talking to HTC it should be a couple more weeks or months or whatever they are doing because being left in the dark constantly is unprofessional. You would never see this in the states.

And for all of you telling me to switch to bell, Im going to but i have 2 more ****ing years on my contract.

Btw Canada ****s itself over with being too protective of foreign companies. It has two companies that own every major cellphone carrier. I dont want to get ****ed by rogers but what choice do i have? go to a sister company? and they know it and if we dont complain they will continue