Buyer beware! MUST READ!

First off I wonder what type of craptastic companies people here deal with when they say a company putting a hold on the purchase price of a defective item is common place. I have NEVER been made to pay or have money put on hold for a defective item. Its another thing for a company to say "if this item is not defective you will be charged", but thats AFTER you send it back.
Second something the people crying "buy a subsidized phone" may be forgetting is that Tmobile cannot do crap for you in regards to the N1. Its my understanding if you are sending the phone back you first talk to Google and then to HTC. Heck you cannot cancel your line through Tmobile, its through Google.
Lastly how someone buys a phone or what they use to do so is immaterial. After trying some tech support and finding the phone is still broken HTC's only response should be "Yes Sir (or mam), we'll replace this right away for you Mam (or sir), we will be emailing you a RMA label right away.". Not "well you can return it, but we're going to put a hold on your money until whatever time we deem fit if we do at all.".

The Moral of the Story:

The fellation of Google needs to stop. Contrary to the gospel, they don't really know what the hell they're doing outside of selling adspace and offering ways of aggregating information in "beta" form to secure more exposure and offer no product support.

I wonder how many Stanford MBA's it took to decide on an an e-mail only customer support system. Probably as many as it took to fully drown objectivity in arrogance.

"But its a game-changer!" Yeah, for noone but Google's image.

@Mykpfsu: the point is, Google is trying to change the model with which phones are sold. That is their primary objective with their google.com/phone initiative. This is not a carrier-sold phone. In other words, the experiment has only shown, in my eyes, that phones are better off being sold through the carrier than through a third/fourth party like Google.

@MartinS: what i meant was, if your phone has a problem, you're screwed - in answer to your question "What if HTC deem that the phone has been damaged by the owner? Where to then?". it may not apply to you, but it applies to me. I am screwed. This is why I'm preaching insurance - because I have none on this phone and I'm stuck dealing with HTC. My story is below. Their service is terrible. My phone has been lost in a black hole over there and no one can tell me what's going on.

I was watching SuperNews! on Hulu and there was this talking toilet named Google. And as the skit ended the toilet said, "Google... we're up your a$$!" Man, how true... how so very true.

I thought that being able to buy a phone from the "manufacturer" (OK... software developer... or whatever Google purports to be) would be a game changer. Turns out, thanks to this forum, & thanks to Google's mishandling an important part of customer satisfaction, tells me that I need to wait until there's a N1 @ Verizon.

What you want to wait for is an N1-like device @ VZW, e.g. an HTC Android phone running 2.1, Sense UI, etc.

Did you every try that clear storage option? That clear storage option would wipe the phone and restore back to stock image. Go head try it now, drop back into the bootloader and try it. I am sure you know this though because of your background as a repair tech....though I suppose if you really were a repair tech then you wouldn't have panicked in the first place because you would have known that it's nearly impossible to brick a device, and the boot loader screen is a sure fire sign that it's not bricked.

As far as the money goes. I am sorry it's happening but you the practice of holding the money from your credit card while they wait to make sure your device makes it back to them is not uncommon. Western Digital for example does this with hard drives. If you have a hard drive that needs to be replaced under warranty then you two options A) Send the drive back and wait for the replacement or B) Have them send you a new drive and then you send the old one back. Of course with option B you need to secure the new drive with a credit/debit card. They do this so people don't run off with a free drive. It sucks as a consumer that it has to be this way, but it would suck a whole lot more if we as the consumer had to subsidize the cost of all those stolen devices.

I know you don't want financial advice but it pains me a bit to see people blaming a company for being ill informed. The device has a warranty on in it and HTC would have given you the same options next month for a warranty return / exchange. If it really was coming down to the wire on paying your mortgage then a rational and responsible person would have waited until next month and then went through with it. Now I understand your need to have a phone because your business depends upon it - guess what so does mine! It's because of that reason I always have a spare phone. I have a spare LG Rumor in my sock drawer. It would suck using it and would be a inconvenience but clients will still be able to get a hold of me and bottom line that's the important part.

To the people who say that the idea of selling a phone unsubsidized is a failed idea - you are wrong. It's a pretty common and popular practice in most of the world. However I do agree the US market (CDMA & GSM carriers) make it a bit more challenging. Yet there are many 3rd party companies that sell unlocked GSM phones to US customers. However those customers buy into knowing that their support option will be the manufacture. Nexus One customers should be aware that they are buying a phone sold through a sales channel that is basically "new" to the US market place. Google and HTC are really the first major companies to attempt this in the US on this type of scale. Obviously there is going to be issues.

I just wrote a long response but hit the wrong button and lost it. Here's the short version:

1) Selling a phone and disclaiming all responsibility for the purchase is not commonplace anywhere.

2) The failure is in the implementation, not the idea of selling unsubsidized phones. You have been able to buy unlocked and unsubsidized phones on Amazon and other places in the US for a long time.

3) This is a disaster for Google. HTC has broken customer service systems - they can't even send out fedex return labels, as one example - and they were wholly unprepared for this process. HTC is used to having a carrier to handle the returns and servicing on the front end.

4) It is much easier to deal with your own carrier for service, repair, and returns, particularly T-Mobile, then having to deal with the train wreck that is HTC. And Google simply casts off any responsibility altogether.

This process was not well thought out - if Google wanted to put all responsibility for the product on the manufacturer, they should have chosen a manufacturer which could handle the process better than HTC. When my Canon camera had an issue I sent it to Canon and within a week had it back. Entirely different experience than dealing with HTC.

If Google wanted to do this right they would have sold the phone as an entirely Google branded phone and handled everything themselves, like Apple-iPhone and Amazon Kindle. I'm not sure why Google is even involved in this process the way it has been implemented.

Well said. That we are even questioning why Google is involved is a testament to the stupidity of the entire launch.

pwnvds said:

I just wrote a long response but hit the wrong button and lost it. Here's the short version:

1) Selling a phone and disclaiming all responsibility for the purchase is not commonplace anywhere.

2) The failure is in the implementation, not the idea of selling unsubsidized phones. You have been able to buy unlocked and unsubsidized phones on Amazon and other places in the US for a long time.

3) This is a disaster for Google. HTC has broken customer service systems - they can't even send out fedex return labels, as one example - and they were wholly unprepared for this process. HTC is used to having a carrier to handle the returns and servicing on the front end.

4) It is much easier to deal with your own carrier for service, repair, and returns, particularly T-Mobile, then having to deal with the train wreck that is HTC. And Google simply casts off any responsibility altogether.

This process was not well thought out - if Google wanted to put all responsibility for the product on the manufacturer, they should have chosen a manufacturer which could handle the process better than HTC. When my Canon camera had an issue I sent it to Canon and within a week had it back. Entirely different experience than dealing with HTC.

If Google wanted to do this right they would have sold the phone as an entirely Google branded phone and handled everything themselves, like Apple-iPhone and Amazon Kindle. I'm not sure why Google is even involved in this process the way it has been implemented.

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oops. doublepost.

pwnvds said:

I just wrote a long response but hit the wrong button and lost it. Here's the short version:

1) Selling a phone and disclaiming all responsibility for the purchase is not commonplace anywhere.

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When I was on a GSM network I used to buy a lot of unlocked phones. The companies that sold those phones where not responsible for fixing it or providing tech support for the device. Typically the store front offered a 14-30 day window for returns if the device was defective other then that I had to contact the manufacture.

2) The failure is in the implementation, not the idea of selling unsubsidized phones. You have been able to buy unlocked and unsubsidized phones on Amazon and other places in the US for a long time.

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The implementation is a bit different and confusing with Google being involved I admit. Yet think about the Amazon situation, if you buy unlocked phones through Amazon do they repair it, and provide you technical support?

3) This is a disaster for Google. HTC has broken customer service systems - they can't even send out fedex return labels, as one example - and they were wholly unprepared for this process. HTC is used to having a carrier to handle the returns and servicing on the front end.

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While the majority of American's where using HTC devices not even knowing they where manufactured by HTC - HTC was selling and servicing their own branded devices all over the world. I've read both positive and negative things about HTC's US side of support over the years. However I do think that HTC (and more importantly Google) is used to servicing a different type of customer then those now buying the Nexus One.

4) It is much easier to deal with your own carrier for service, repair, and returns, particularly T-Mobile, then having to deal with the train wreck that is HTC. And Google simply casts off any responsibility altogether.

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You're right on that one. It's way easier to deal with a carrier. It's a lot easier to have a new phone handed to you and then let the carrier handle the process of dealing with a manufacture. However I don't think this is anything unique to HTC (sucks they couldn't be unique in being a better supporting manufacture). When it comes to supporting phones most major manufactures seem to be a pain in the ass to deal with and the story is always the same - send us the device and then you'll get it back eventually.

This process was not well thought out - if Google wanted to put all responsibility for the product on the manufacturer, they should have chosen a manufacturer which could handle the process better than HTC. When my Canon camera had an issue I sent it to Canon and within a week had it back. Entirely different experience than dealing with HTC.

If Google wanted to do this right they would have sold the phone as an entirely Google branded phone and handled everything themselves, like Apple-iPhone and Amazon Kindle. I'm not sure why Google is even involved in this process the way it has been implemented.

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For the most part whenever I learn that I am going to have to deal directly with the manufacture a little bit of my soul dies. I am glad that Canon worked nicely for you but I've heard others complain. Sony took a two months to get my PS3 back to me others not so long.

It all boils down to the OP being upset because HTC's only two options were A) Send the phone back and wait for it to be repaired or B) secure a new device with his credit/debit card - wait for the new device to come then send the defective one back and have the hold removed. Neither one of those options sound as nice as carrier support but that's manufacture support plain and simple. How would Google have done it any differently - it's not like you would be able to download a new device right - they don't have stores to stop in at.

The OP bought an unlocked and unsubsidized phone. Now he is mad because the company who is responsible for it (HTC) doesn't just want to send him another unlocked and unsubsidized device with out some reassurance that they will get the other device back.

kennyidaho said:

How would Google have done it any differently - it's not like you would be able to download a new device right - they don't have stores to stop in at.

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And this proves the final point that I'm going to make: google should not be selling (or brokering, which is really what they're doing) phones.

System6 said:

@kennyidaho WOW. Don't know what you are talking about much? Bootloader is commonly used to install customer ROMs and Androids do not have a way to repair the OS from a PC like win mobile or the iPhone. (And I've wiped it 4 times. Bootloader and safe mode are still intermittent.)

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A bootloader is just that - a bootloader. A small piece of software that loads the OS into memory. Androids do have a way to repair the OS from a PC. Several Android devices have RUU's that you can download and restore the phone with just like Windows Mobile. While there is not a RUU for the Nexus One in the wild just yet (that I am aware of) but there seems to be some factory images which it can be done with just not as simple as an RUU flash. The recovery option in the bootloader seems to look for a signed image file and then restores with it - previous HTC devices running Windows Mobile did this as well - in fact it was my preferred method of flashing opposed to connecting the device to a PC. So there is a possible solution for you out there.

I understand you probably don't feel like you should have to jump through hoops in an attempt to possibly restore your phone from a bad flash. Personally I would attempt to do it because that's me and that's what I like to do....I would be interested in finding out if it was just a bad factory flash or defective memory. I hold nothing against you for not wanting to.

Again with my finance, I am very financially stable, I just used the new year and the fact it is a 3 pay period month to get ahead on bills. Again, thanks for the financial advice. If you must know and people will continue to grill and harass me about this I gave a sizable sum of money to 2 charities I support. That's why I am broke. Not playing the sympathy card, not trying to look like Mr. Perfect, but I had some "extra cash" or so I thought, and now I'm short.

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I think you left yourself open for it when you mentioned your house payment. I think a lot of people will read that and say the same thing as someone else did "priority issue". I am not saying that you do or don't - just saying that the way it reads it gives that appearance. I've made a lot of poor financial decisions myself I am not one to judge.

It's like you didn't even read my posts. Do you work for HTC or T-mobile? I don't think so because your phone knowledge is questionable at best, but American culture is not ready for the shock of the full cost of unsubsidized devices, (Especially the carriers as they do not have sufficient "no contract" plans in place to handle unsubsidized handsets) and this was the first intentional launch for that very purpose and Google had a responsibility to prove it could be done and it could be done well and it failed.

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I never said the American culture was ready for unsubsidized and unlocked handsets - I wish it was. In my personal opinion freaking 80% of America isn't even ready for smart phones - look around these forums. How many people can't even manage a simple task such as plugging their phone into a compute and moving files to an SD card? Think these people can understand a more complicated price scheme that doesn't include a salesman at the mall holding their hand the whole way?

I worried about Google's method one I first heard about it. The media had been bashing everyone with "The Google Phone" stories but I knew as most people in tech circles knew that this was not going to be a device like the iPhone. Google has never really been in the business of holding peoples hands when it comes to support - they are a bunch of engineers - most of their product documentation reads like it was written by an engineer for another engineer as an after thought.

I know there have been others for hardcore phone nerds like myself, but actually this is the first time one has ever been pushed and marketed heavily and it was a failure... by consumers complaints, by sales trend, any way you look at it....failure.

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I really think that if the media hadn't hyped this up so much this would have been a hardcore phone nerd phone. I don't think Google or HTC pushed or marketed this phone heavily. I have not seen a single online ad for it or commercial - just lots of often inaccurate media coverage. It really sucks but I wish Google's support was ready for the "masses" but what is done is done. Maybe they can turn it around - maybe not.

I am not angry they put my money on hold, I am angry because it is a one way transaction. What's protecting me from some 18 year old dip saying "he messed this phone up" and charging me for the new phone when I know for a FACT I did not. Like I said earlier, a paypal type "protect both parties" situation is practical. Your western Digital argument is irrelevant. We are discussing the way it should be and you are talking about the way it is..... while then talking about the way it should be with the unsubsidized handsets issue. You are picking and choosing what you think is fair and just based off experience and not common sense.

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I wasn't arguing that it was right or wrong - it was an example. I caught the vibe from a few posters that this practice was unheard of - but it's pretty common when it comes to expensive products. It sucks and I know it sucks because going back to Western Digital there have been a few times I've need a drives and other expensive componets replaced "RIGHT NOW" but did not that the available funds to cover the hold so I have to go back to the client and say "Hey I need your card". At this point their eyes glaze over - they ignore everything I say and all of a sudden I am a douche bag.

I am not sure how well they check these phones. I've sent a few phones back to Sprint and other carriers with unlocked bootloaders and custom roms on them. Never had a single thing said to me. I think they just check for obvious physical damage - hook it up to a computer and flash it. Sending a phone back to HTC maybe different - I want to be clear though that I do understand your concern.

@digdug Well said and a more rational resposne by kennyidaho finally. Sounding like less of a troll.

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Nothing I say is rational - in fact because of my Mt. Dew and Marlboro Menthol habit my teeth are roting out of my head (actually I have soft teeth and they have been falling apart since I was born - but I've done my share to help them along). When I am home posting on the internet chances are that I am on enough hydrocodone to kill a horse. Speaking of such things I am done....I have pills to take and other threads to spout off in.

I filed complaints against HTC and Google today with the BBB. Tomorrow I will explore other avenues for complaints. In my daily chat with HTC today I was promised that this time, someone from escalations would definitely contact me. I was not contacted. They do not know whats going on with my phone that I sent for repairs. I may never get it back. I am thinking about disputing the charge on my credit card for the phone and the repair (when or if it appears).

Good. Hopefully they will get your money back and you can go buy a phone that you can "drop maybe 20 times in 15 months" or possibly take into the shower with you.

I'm sorry but with your first post in which you discussed how you treated your G1 I started rolling my eyes. I sincerely hope everything turns out well for you, I'm just not surprised to hear that the current HTC model is having issues with situations such as this. Doesn't make it acceptable though, just understandable. Ironically, it sounds as if you had sat on your phone just a few days later you could have dealt with Tmobile about it provided you have insurance.

I also filed a complaint against Google for deceptive trade practices with the FTC. I don't think that does anything, but at least it makes me feel better.

Jschu22, you've missed the point.

pwnvds said:

Jschu22, you've missed the point.

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I may have. But I certainly have not missed the point in taking better care of my phones.

System6 said:

Ordered an "Overnight" replacement Friday at 9am. Still no tracking number.

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You know today is a holiday, right?

Interesting, Jschu22, but yet, totally and completely irrelevant to this discussion.

pwnvds said:

Interesting, Jschu22, but yet, totally and completely irrelevant to this discussion.

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Not completely- If you took better care of your phones this would not have been an issue for you. Unless of course the N1 has an undisclosed feature of being able to jump off tables on its own. Or something similarly damaging.