With Android on the rise, do you think that Apple's iOS is dying?

[jonmorris]

Can we please stop this nonsense now? This was a pretty good thread and it has been totally hijacked.

Nobody is interested in doing a survey to see if Mac users are all computer illiterate. Unless we can check every single owner in the entire world, it would be meaningless.

 

[Tangent]

Let me rephrase my actual question. I don't think there is any way that Android will completely remove Apple from the market, but do you think that Android will eventually take the throne from iOS as top smartphone?

The problem is there will never be a consensus on what defines "top". iOS could be less than 10% of the market and you'd still have people rabidly defending it as the best thing ever. If you're just looking at market share, I think it's inevitable that Android will overtake iOS. Android gives you dozens of options of the style and functionality of the phone while if you want an iPhone, you'd better like what that one model offers. Androids go from very small and thin devices, to ones with big HD screens, ones with and without physical keyboards, not to mention many different aesthetic options. iPhones will be the exact same with the possible option of different aftermarket cases or apparently you'll be able to get it in black or white soon... Android has options to cater to what the customers want. iPhones have the option of you liking it or not.

...
4. Already talked about the intuitiveness. Apple's got one hardware button. Android's got four. One is way more intuitive than four.

I really have to disagree with this. With Android's 4 buttons you always know where to go to get to your Home screen, to go back one step, pull up any available menu, or search. Apple makes it obvious how to get to the home screen. But what if you need to go back a step or go to a menu? Does every app in the store have a "menu" or "back" function that's displayed exactly the same? If not, you're now looking at apps that require you to relearn common functions for each one instead of having a default button you know will work the same no matter what app you happen to be using.



As far as computer illiterates go, it doesn't matter if you give then am Android or iOS device. Either way they'll learn a few macros to perform given functions and that'll be it. Many are such technophobes that what most of us consider blindingly obvious and intuitive will be a foreign language to them.

They also tend to believe the hype about any product. Hand them a device they've heard (from ads or friends, it doesn't matter) is easy and intuitive to use and they'll start poking around and when asked will tell you it is intuitive. If those same people had been told that the device was difficult to use (or highly customizable, that's the same thing to them) they'd be afraid to experiment with it lest they ruin it somehow. I don't know how many people I've had to convince to just click around in their PCs to get used to how it works because they were afraid to. They've been taught that it's complicated, so they think clicking "OK" to anything is potentially fatal and should not be done without expert advice. I've actually gotten work orders from people that didn't know what to do when an error message popped up saying their printer was out of paper. They saw a pop-up box and since they weren't expecting it, they immediately decided it was beyond their ability to handle and called for help.

 

[A.Nonymous]

I really have to disagree with this. With Android's 4 buttons you always know where to go to get to your Home screen, to go back one step, pull up any available menu, or search. Apple makes it obvious how to get to the home screen. But what if you need to go back a step or go to a menu? Does every app in the store have a "menu" or "back" function that's displayed exactly the same? If not, you're now looking at apps that require you to relearn common functions for each one instead of having a default button you know will work the same no matter what app you happen to be using.

Actually, they all do for the most part. I won't say that every single one does because I haven't tried them all, but the ones on my phone that have several screens in them all have a back button in the exact same place that looks the same on every app. I don't know if this is because Apple has certain design standards that they enforce or if that button is just there in the API and it always appears in the same place and is easy to program.

 

[Intervenient]

Nobody is interested in doing a survey to see if Mac users are all computer illiterate. Unless we can check every single owner in the entire world, it would be meaningless.

Exactly.

 

[Tangent]

Actually, they all do for the most part. I won't say that every single one does because I haven't tried them all, but the ones on my phone that have several screens in them all have a back button in the exact same place that looks the same on every app. I don't know if this is because Apple has certain design standards that they enforce or if that button is just there in the API and it always appears in the same place and is easy to program.

Then what's the difference between iOS and Android besides one having permanent buttons and the other requiring the app developer to put one there?

 

[jonmorris]

On iOS, the back button is usually an icon at the top left of the screen - which isn't as easy to press when you hold the phone. Mind you, given the way you now have to hold an iPhone, maybe it's perfectly positioned.

 

[grainysand]

Then what's the difference between iOS and Android besides one having permanent buttons and the other requiring the app developer to put one there?

The buttons in an iOS app waste screen real estate whereas Android's permanent buttons do not.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

So then I propose an experiment.
-first we need to define a set of questions, and criteria that would be considered computer literate.
Anyone interested in conducting this experiment with me?

This whole stereotype of Apple users as being illiterate is really dumbfounded.

Exactly what is computer literacy?I have an extremely high level of requirements. Based on my requirements, many would fail.

Does the user know how to use vi? If not, they're morons.

Does the user know an object oriented programming language?
Is he/she proficient in databases; full understanding of ANSI SQL92 syntax: Joins, pivots, triggers?
Does the user know how Unix permissions; changing ownerships and groups of files?
Does the user know how to write IPFW routes?
Does the user know how to set-up a LVM RAID 5?

Well, all the UNIX system administrators; MYSQL/Postgres Database programmers, LAMP developers,and a few Android Java programmers I know are ALL mac users? Many of the programmers on the Google campus happen to use a mac by choice.

Just because they use a mac, I guess they're all illiterate.

I've worked with some really "prejudiced" people. Prejudice as in hating or stereotyping a certain platform and its users. This type of ignorance is really bad.

I'll give you a scenario from an iHater I once worked with. We had a project to set up a video render farm; scalable from scratch to convert 4000k (think film) video.

The guy spent more time googling than actually doing the work; arguing open-source, this and that. I said, fine. Write the database and set up a hot-folder to distribute any video files and re-encode to a 12 core blade.

He spent 6 weeks compiling ffmpeg, he had problems with his mysql install because the 64 bit version conflicted with his php SOAP library (for a cloud). Whenever he had a "final build," he could never re-create it on a different system. There were too many patches here and there you couldn't track down the dependencies.

Moreover, you couldn't ghost the build because of different hardware builds. He was so steadfast against using a mac. He also thought I was "illiterate" for using a mac.
Well, he got no database help from me and I chuckled every time he was googling to find answers. I would even throw him some curve balls like

"you can't store the file path in the db because the users constantly move the files around. go into the filesystem and get the inode pointer and store that."

That guy would work 14-16 hours a day just to prove he could do it. He even goggled and emailed me questions at 3 AM from home and I could see the desperation. My answer would always be, "well on OSX, I could be using this... oops, I forgot, Linux doesn't have Photoshop that has scripting. Or (specific library) depreciated that feature for 64 bit, I guess you're out of luck. On a mac, a work-around is to use Quicktime because that codec is available. "

We give guys 3 months of latitude to settle in and develop their own workflow. After some immersion, we give them some real-world tests to see if they can incorporate what they learned from various platforms. They can use any operating system/tool they have at their disposal. Most guys will pick the best from each platform and build cross-interoperable multi-platform solutions. This iHater, well, he refused. Unfortunately, we let him go because he couldn't deliver the work. His stubbornness and refusal to accept that different computer platforms cost him his job.

We did the whole thing in 2 weeks using macs with full distributed SOAP/PHP. We wrote a PHP front-end to Quicktime. Also, I saved the company money because we didn't need a 12 core blade. My app utilized a 120 node cluster of idle macs at night. We will use whatever for their specific needs. E.G. Linux for web front end and macs for heavy image processing, high codec stuff, linux for quick batch processing. We also throw in windows for good measure like where we needed a SMS messaging server.

When the iHater left, he mumbled about how he could have done it in 6 months "the right way." To this day, I see his resume posted and no one in my immediate circle would hire him.
My particular iHater's definition of literacy was to google online forums. For the type of work we do, they don't post their secrets on message boards for answers. We charge clients for this type of work and we don't use pre-packed stuff.

I guess us mac users are illiterate. My team writes software to help company automate. Automate like it replacing employees with software.

 

[Niir]

well i duno MrSpeedmaster....this is a thread about iOS not OSX....

OSX i dont think anyone would argue with you is better at some stuff than windows/linux.

However iOS is for computer illiterate people...hell all popular OS's are for computer illiterate people because THEY ARE THE MAJORITY

 

[Intervenient]

This whole stereotype of Apple users as being illiterate is really dumbfounded.

Exactly what is computer literacy?I have an extremely high level of requirements. Based on my requirements, many would fail.

Does the user know how to use vi? If not, they're morons.

Does the user know an object oriented programming language?
Is he/she proficient in databases; full understanding of ANSI SQL92 syntax: Joins, pivots, triggers?
Does the user know how Unix permissions; changing ownerships and groups of files?
Does the user know how to write IPFW routes?
Does the user know how to set-up a LVM RAID 5?

Well, all the UNIX system administrators; MYSQL/Postgres Database programmers, LAMP developers,and a few Android Java programmers I know are ALL mac users? Many of the programmers on the Google campus happen to use a mac by choice.

Just because they use a mac, I guess they're all illiterate.

I've worked with some really "prejudiced" people. Prejudice as in hating or stereotyping a certain platform and its users. This type of ignorance is really bad.

I'll give you a scenario from an iHater I once worked with. We had a project to set up a video render farm; scalable from scratch to convert 4000k (think film) video.

The guy spent more time googling than actually doing the work; arguing open-source, this and that. I said, fine. Write the database and set up a hot-folder to distribute any video files and re-encode to a 12 core blade.

He spent 6 weeks compiling ffmpeg, he had problems with his mysql install because the 64 bit version conflicted with his php SOAP library (for a cloud). Whenever he had a "final build," he could never re-create it on a different system. There were too many patches here and there you couldn't track down the dependencies.

Moreover, you couldn't ghost the build because of different hardware builds. He was so steadfast against using a mac. He also thought I was "illiterate" for using a mac.
Well, he got no database help from me and I chuckled every time he was googling to find answers. I would even throw him some curve balls like

"you can't store the file path in the db because the users constantly move the files around. go into the filesystem and get the inode pointer and store that."

That guy would work 14-16 hours a day just to prove he could do it. He even goggled and emailed me questions at 3 AM from home and I could see the desperation. My answer would always be, "well on OSX, I could be using this... oops, I forgot, Linux doesn't have Photoshop that has scripting. Or (specific library) depreciated that feature for 64 bit, I guess you're out of luck. On a mac, a work-around is to use Quicktime because that codec is available. "

We give guys 3 months of latitude to settle in and develop their own workflow. After some immersion, we give them some real-world tests to see if they can incorporate what they learned from various platforms. They can use any operating system/tool they have at their disposal. Most guys will pick the best from each platform and build cross-interoperable multi-platform solutions. This iHater, well, he refused. Unfortunately, we let him go because he couldn't deliver the work. His stubbornness and refusal to accept that different computer platforms cost him his job.

We did the whole thing in 2 weeks using macs with full distributed SOAP/PHP. We wrote a PHP front-end to Quicktime. Also, I saved the company money because we didn't need a 12 core blade. My app utilized a 120 node cluster of idle macs at night. We will use whatever for their specific needs. E.G. Linux for web front end and macs for heavy image processing, high codec stuff, linux for quick batch processing. We also throw in windows for good measure like where we needed a SMS messaging server.

When the iHater left, he mumbled about how he could have done it in 6 months "the right way." To this day, I see his resume posted and no one in my immediate circle would hire him.
My particular iHater's definition of literacy was to google online forums. For the type of work we do, they don't post their secrets on message boards for answers. We charge clients for this type of work and we don't use pre-packed stuff.

I guess us mac users are illiterate. My team writes software to help company automate. Automate like it replacing employees with software.

*expects a " - Keep building straw houses."*

 

[IOWA]

This whole stereotype of Apple users as being illiterate is really dumbfounded.

Exactly what is computer literacy?I have an extremely high level of requirements. Based on my requirements, many would fail.

Does the user know how to use vi? If not, they're morons.

Does the user know an object oriented programming language?
Is he/she proficient in databases; full understanding of ANSI SQL92 syntax: Joins, pivots, triggers?
Does the user know how Unix permissions; changing ownerships and groups of files?
Does the user know how to write IPFW routes?
Does the user know how to set-up a LVM RAID 5?

Well, all the UNIX system administrators; MYSQL/Postgres Database programmers, LAMP developers,and a few Android Java programmers I know are ALL mac users? Many of the programmers on the Google campus happen to use a mac by choice.

Just because they use a mac, I guess they're all illiterate.

I've worked with some really "prejudiced" people. Prejudice as in hating or stereotyping a certain platform and its users. This type of ignorance is really bad.

I'll give you a scenario from an iHater I once worked with. We had a project to set up a video render farm; scalable from scratch to convert 4000k (think film) video.

The guy spent more time googling than actually doing the work; arguing open-source, this and that. I said, fine. Write the database and set up a hot-folder to distribute any video files and re-encode to a 12 core blade.

He spent 6 weeks compiling ffmpeg, he had problems with his mysql install because the 64 bit version conflicted with his php SOAP library (for a cloud). Whenever he had a "final build," he could never re-create it on a different system. There were too many patches here and there you couldn't track down the dependencies.

Moreover, you couldn't ghost the build because of different hardware builds. He was so steadfast against using a mac. He also thought I was "illiterate" for using a mac.
Well, he got no database help from me and I chuckled every time he was googling to find answers. I would even throw him some curve balls like

"you can't store the file path in the db because the users constantly move the files around. go into the filesystem and get the inode pointer and store that."

That guy would work 14-16 hours a day just to prove he could do it. He even goggled and emailed me questions at 3 AM from home and I could see the desperation. My answer would always be, "well on OSX, I could be using this... oops, I forgot, Linux doesn't have Photoshop that has scripting. Or (specific library) depreciated that feature for 64 bit, I guess you're out of luck. On a mac, a work-around is to use Quicktime because that codec is available. "

We give guys 3 months of latitude to settle in and develop their own workflow. After some immersion, we give them some real-world tests to see if they can incorporate what they learned from various platforms. They can use any operating system/tool they have at their disposal. Most guys will pick the best from each platform and build cross-interoperable multi-platform solutions. This iHater, well, he refused. Unfortunately, we let him go because he couldn't deliver the work. His stubbornness and refusal to accept that different computer platforms cost him his job.

We did the whole thing in 2 weeks using macs with full distributed SOAP/PHP. We wrote a PHP front-end to Quicktime. Also, I saved the company money because we didn't need a 12 core blade. My app utilized a 120 node cluster of idle macs at night. We will use whatever for their specific needs. E.G. Linux for web front end and macs for heavy image processing, high codec stuff, linux for quick batch processing. We also throw in windows for good measure like where we needed a SMS messaging server.

When the iHater left, he mumbled about how he could have done it in 6 months "the right way." To this day, I see his resume posted and no one in my immediate circle would hire him.
My particular iHater's definition of literacy was to google online forums. For the type of work we do, they don't post their secrets on message boards for answers. We charge clients for this type of work and we don't use pre-packed stuff.

I guess us mac users are illiterate. My team writes software to help company automate. Automate like it replacing employees with software.

Good read, but I was going for something a little more broad. 99.99% of people in the world can't do that stuff, as it is specialized. The only problem I have with some of your posts is you take one teeny tiny instance and blow it out of proportion.

However with some of the crap people post on here(or engadget for that matter) can you truely not see why these stereotypes exist?

What I'm curious to find out is if its the sqeaky wheel syndrome, or are the majority of mac users like this?

I do love most of your posts and hats off to you, but while computer sciences in whatever field your in may be your strong point, constructing an argument isn't.

First off, people need to be able to understand your argument, and I promise you 90% or above in this forum did not understand what you were talking about.

And I use norton ghost to keep backups of my os hard drives every month =)

But here's a question.. if he was using nuetral language like php and the like.. why was he having trouble with using it on different systems? That just doesn't make sense...

 

[mpw]

...First off, people need to be able to understand your argument, and I promise you 90% or above in this forum did not understand what you were talking about...

I understood it IOWA, and I'm a Mac user! Most of the professional IT people I know use Macs, even if programming for Windows environments.

None of your arguments hold any water, but I think you actually know that

 

[Intervenient]

I understood it IOWA, and I'm a Mac user! Most of the professional IT people I know use Macs, even if programming for Windows environments.

None of your arguments hold any water, but I think you actually know that

There is no arguing with IOWA. He's actually fairly pleasant once you acknowledge he's a genius.

 

[The Great One]

Android just needs a successful marketting campaign. Thats the difference between the iPhone and any other Android handsets. I ask people what an Android is, and there like "whaaaa?" which I find pretty insulting since Apple keep hogging up the fame. Damn - even carriers have their own dedicated page for this one device. I dont see Apple dieing soon. And I agree with that other dude that competition is healthy. People just need to be aware that there are better phones out there. About 4 months ago I had NO idea what the hell an HTC was and nor did I ever hear of the Android OS. Thats the problem. Apple are more universal and always publicize their products with much hype, making it sound like its something so awesome (which maybe some consider it is). I for one have NEVER seen an Android ad on TV. I've seen ads for phones like the Galaxy and Wildfire but they never really show something so powerful that it makes people want to buy the phone. The only reason I was sure that HTC was a better choice (or Android to be exact) was after days of extensive research on every single recent HTC handset (and a few others by Samsung and Motorola too).

But no - I dont see Apple dieing, its gonna be around for a LOOONG time in my opinion. I bet there will be a new big thing by Apple which can also be used as a phone very soon - with a change in design and that will be the next big thing so I dont see it dieing.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

well i duno MrSpeedmaster....this is a thread about iOS not OSX....

I was answering this stereotype that mac users are illiterate.

And I use norton ghost to keep backups of my os hard drives every month =).

Ghost only works on your build. I bet if you ghost your machine (say an atom intel netbook) and clone it to a different setup (say 8 core xeon running 64 bit w/ LVM raid), it will not boot up properly or have conflicting drivers.

But here's a question.. if he was using nuetral language like php and the like.. why was he having trouble with using it on different systems? That just doesn't make sense...

The basic stuff, code monkey jr entry level LAMP stuff works across. But, you get into trouble when you start using exotic methods/functions that require specific libraries or modules. Most of the stuff you don't find on help boards or mailing lists.

PHP have different versions and they depreciate certain methods/functions in different builds. E.G. 5.3 move certain databases into the PDO architecture. Let say you wrote something using sqlite and it works in 5.3, it won't work in 5.2 because the lack of pdo in 5.2. You would have to re-write all the calls. Redhat 5.3 enterprise server runs an older version of Apache/mysql version than say Ubuntu 9.10 workstation. You can't just run an update because they may not be supported for security lock-down reasons. rpms install different dependencies than their debian counterparts,etc.. Another example is FFMPEG depreciated the a certain library for watermarking, you have to use an older version which may or may not support certain codecs...etc.etc..

This problem happens on all the platforms not just Linux. It happens on macs as well.

 

[eddjc]

Hey all - have written a blog about this -

Poetry, Pics and Thoughts: Backing the Losers

Thought it only fair that you read it as it references this discussion (although to be fair it's about all techno-wars really)

Edd

 

[IOWA]

I was answering this stereotype that mac users are illiterate.



Ghost only works on your build. I bet if you ghost your machine (say an atom intel netbook) and clone it to a different setup (say 8 core xeon running 64 bit w/ LVM raid), it will not boot up properly or have conflicting drivers.



The basic stuff, code monkey jr entry level LAMP stuff works across. But, you get into trouble when you start using exotic methods/functions that require specific libraries or modules. Most of the stuff you don't find on help boards or mailing lists.

PHP have different versions and they depreciate certain methods/functions in different builds. E.G. 5.3 move certain databases into the PDO architecture. Let say you wrote something using sqlite and it works in 5.3, it won't work in 5.2 because the lack of pdo in 5.2. You would have to re-write all the calls. Redhat 5.3 enterprise server runs an older version of Apache/mysql version than say Ubuntu 9.10 workstation. You can't just run an update because they may not be supported for security lock-down reasons. rpms install different dependencies than their debian counterparts,etc.. Another example is FFMPEG depreciated the a certain library for watermarking, you have to use an older version which may or may not support certain codecs...etc.etc..

This problem happens on all the platforms not just Linux. It happens on macs as well.

With ghost on the newer os's your right, you have to have the same mob/chipset..

And couldn't you just tranfer the respective lib to the new machine where its needed to function? Or would that be out of the question?

 

[droido256]

I've used both ios 3, the storm(OS 5), and now have a droid. Out of all of these, the best is android. internet on the ios 3 and 4 just plain sucks. With the droid I have flash, and I can easily view full blown webpages very quickly. The multitasking is a helluvalot faster on droid than a iphone 4

 

[MrX8503]

Millions of iphone4's, iphone3gs, iPads, iPod touches. Literally millions of each, that is a tremendous amount of iOS on the market.

Dying? I don't think so. Besides the smartphone market is growing to a point where I think both Android and iOS can coexist.

 

[IOWA]

Millions of iphone4's, iphone3gs, iPads, iPod touches. Literally millions of each, that is a tremendous amount of iOS on the market.

Dying? I don't think so. Besides the smartphone market is growing to a point where I think both Android and iOS can coexist.

Millions of devices/products today doesn't speak for tomarrow.


Remember what happened with AOL?

 

[LoyalServant]

Let me rephrase my actual question. I don't think there is any way that Android will completely remove Apple from the market, but do you think that Android will eventually take the throne from iOS as top smartphone?

Yes.. and very shortly.
I have seen the rise and fall of Apple many times now.
iFans argue that being 'open' has nothing to do with it but they are ignoring history.
IBM made the very hardware that runs on today's Apple machines open.
Microsoft allowed anyone to write anything for Windows.
(most of it being crap, but that's a different subject)

From a business perspective.. I fail to understand their logic.
It only works in the short term then they get into financial trouble because people stop buying it when they have a more open, cheaper alternative.

If their IOS (and yes I keep thinking Cisco IOS...) was more open I bet Android uptake would have stalled, if it ever happened.

Apple is it's own worst enemy, and always has.

 

[MrX8503]

Millions of devices/products today doesn't speak for tomarrow.


Remember what happened with AOL?

The question from the OP is present tense. Also you could say the same thing about Android or any platform for that matter.

 

[opticalshadow]

well, ill just give a short answer here on the topic.

no apple isnt dying, ios isnt going to die, just like mac didnt die, there will be people for both systems, and people for a different one entirely, and each system will fill a niche the others cant. even if one os was infinitly better then another, in every possible way, people would still use it, because both ipohne and android have enough fanboys to keep their os going, reguardless of anything other then its name.

 

[mpw]

Nevermind iOS, it looks like Blackberry OS is going to be the next of the mobile OSs to fail judging by the poor sales of their latest offering being reported.

 

[IOWA]

well, ill just give a short answer here on the topic.

no apple isnt dying, ios isnt going to die, just like mac didnt die, there will be people for both systems, and people for a different one entirely, and each system will fill a niche the others cant. even if one os was infinitly better then another, in every possible way, people would still use it, because both ipohne and android have enough fanboys to keep their os going, reguardless of anything other then its name.

Actually, Apple DID die. Microsoft simply saved them to avoid anti trust laws, by giving them a metaphorical "defibulator rebirth" through a massive multi million dollar cash infusion. Now with other os's on the rise, (albiet slowly), Apple is making the same misyakes that got them to their first "near-death experience", and they may not live through the second one. And unless they change their ways, there will be a second one.