Health Care - STOP believeing the BULL and buying the SCAM

[IOWA]

Thanks for taking the time to read it.
Think about medicine this way and I hope it makes things even clearer for you. How can you turn a profit from sick people? How can you profit year after year with increases? For me to keep profiting it means like any other business something has to go...that something is well...YOU or your FAMILY. Yes, money can be made in RnD, medical devices etc... but you have a clear conflict of interest when you are trying to care for a person. For a Christian Nation I am surprised that people put profit over human care.

Again, feel free to ask me any questions you may have. PM if you like.

The United States stopped being a "Christian" nation a long while ago.

 

[droiduzr2]

The United States stopped being a "Christian" nation a long while ago.

Then why the big hubub about if Obama is a Christian or not...which the man is.

I always wonder when people say stupid things such as the gunman was black...would you feel better if you were shot by a white guy?
That bullet knows no color and does not care, it's purpose is to kill you. Duh!!!

I think the moderates need to take the damn country back look at the globe to see where you fit. I think the old guys know the deal and the gig is up. What does America have left that the world wants? You make nothing really that China or India can't make and sell it back to you at half the price...lol

For all those Socialists type haters...funny how none of those Politicians rejected their FREE GOVERNMENT FUNDED TAX PAYER health coverage.

You are all pretty much socialist based on some simple facts:
1. medicare- socialist
2. public schools - socialist
3. hospitals - ditto
4. garbage collectors - same
5. libraries - again, same
6. Police - socialist
7. Firefighters- socialist

There are certain BASIC building blocks that a nation needs in order to grow. It's funny how ALL those TEA PARTY and REPUBLICAN types are getting paid from TAX $$$$ and getting all of their FREE BENEFITS including PENSION for LIFE. Why don't they denounce all of that SOCIALIST STUFF?

 

[copestag]

you could pick out any number of things and say people are socialist because their country participates.......... but if you want to knit pick the definition of socialism then there is no civilization on earth that is not socialist

its very easy to say a person is socialist if they arent paying taxes to provide these services....... which is the majority of Americans....... for the rest of us who are forced to pay a considerable amount of taxes this becomes forced socialism

to say things like hospitals are socialist is pretty ridiculous..... you have to pay for hospital services..... they arent just granted to you

of course Im sure your argument would be then that the meager bill a person pays for hospital services doesnt encompass the true total cost of providing those services which is divided among all users and lowered which then becomes a form of socialism...... but by that thinking if you buy a pack of gum youre a socialist...... since the $.50 you paid cant nearly encompass the total cost to buy the machinery, pay the labor, and produce that pack of gum

and garbage collectors? you must be living large..... Ive never lived anywhere that I didnt have to pay for garbage collection if I wanted it

overall I would have to assume then that you believe every civilization on earth is socialist....

 

[droiduzr2]

you could pick out any number of things and say people are socialist because their country participates.......... but if you want to knit pick the definition of socialism then there is no civilization on earth that is not socialist

its very easy to say a person is socialist if they arent paying taxes to provide these services....... which is the majority of Americans....... for the rest of us who are forced to pay a considerable amount of taxes this becomes forced socialism

to say things like hospitals are socialist is pretty ridiculous..... you have to pay for hospital services..... they arent just granted to you

of course Im sure your argument would be then that the meager bill a person pays for hospital services doesnt encompass the true total cost of providing those services which is divided among all users and lowered which then becomes a form of socialism...... but by that thinking if you buy a pack of gum youre a socialist...... since the $.50 you paid cant nearly encompass the total cost to buy the machinery, pay the labor, and produce that pack of gum

and garbage collectors? you must be living large..... Ive never lived anywhere that I didnt have to pay for garbage collection if I wanted it

overall I would have to assume then that you believe every civilization on earth is socialist....

Not sure where you headed with this. I think I have written lots and with clarity. Please reread my posts.

I will say this to you. I guess there is no problem then because the US is doing just fine. I guess your Citizens and elected leaders on all levels are acting in the NATIONS best interest.

Stupid me, I should listen to John McCain, he said the Economy was sound...why did I have to turn back on the tv 2 days later to find out the US was on the brink of a financial meltdown which triggered a global slowdown too.

I am trying to offer SOLUTIONS or different points to consider which is more than I can say for some here and your elected leaders.

Just remember these tiny facts, China has now built the world's fastest computer and also has a Space program. The US has the slower computer and soon will not have a space program. China and Germany are leading the world in Green Tech such as manufacturing of wind turbines etc...China has committed it's countries growth towards the global green economy.

What do you have to offer to compete with the rest of the world?
I am interested in hearing some suggestions from you and others.
thx

 

[byteware]

I guess it comes down to this. Do your rich come the US for medical treatment? Yes. Yes they do.

Why would they choose to pay for treatment when they could have it for free, unless it was better?

 

[CXXV]

Unfortunately the US has always been at the crossroads of Capitalism vs Social Responsiblity.

Most US citizens will tell you that they do not want the federal government to interfere with anything. Unfortunately this sometime leads to issues such as the breakdown of the economy and of course the out of control cost of healthcare. It's just like professional athletes - they keep making more because we pay them more. Stop going to the games and let's see what happens.

Personally I believe that the US and it's legislators have totally lost sight of the Constitution (except of course when it favors them). The preamble clearly states that the Federal Government is to help provide for the Common Good.

As such I clearly would support government involvement in areas such as healthcare. Mind you, I am not endorsing Obamacare. His reform will not help anything.

Our government refuses to actually find the root cause of high healthcare. Like the example above with atheletes I believe we have simply caved to the demands of so called health care professional and pay what ever they demand.

Having said that, friends of mine in the health care world point to how much doctors and hospitals have to swallow to provide care of people who do not have insurance.

My solution would be to get rid of Social Security as forced savings. Instead use the money collected to pay for national health care to cover those that can't afford insurance. It's not about making insurance more affordable, that is not the root cause.

I grew up in a small Latin American country. They have socialized medicine. There, every doctor (from the most renowned neurosurgeon to the backwater guy) has to give 50% of their time to national healtcare. They still make more than enough money in their private practice. Interestingly enough there are no issues with the cost of healthcare. And before you all go jumping around, there are no issues with waiting to see a doctor or having the proper procedures done, or anything else. All their facilities are modern and up to date. So much so that many americans travel there for procedures. In the majority of cases the american insurance companies love this because of the lower cost.

BTW, my issues are not with the office of the President, there is not much that person can do. It is with the congress people who do very little for their constituency and only care for what benefits them. Why are they exempt from paying social security (even as I hate SS), why are they elegible for full pension after only 2 years of service, why are they allowed to take off six months every year, why should they be allowed to start campaining for re-election a year ahead of time.

I say we make them work all year and have 10 days vacation like all the rest of the people. Limit terms, I don't like career politicians. And as much as I hate the british social system I like the fact that they only allow campaigning for 30 prior to elections and no fund raising prior to that.

So until some one in the US can beat some sense into our politicians, and make them realize that they have completely forgotten their charter we may never solve these issues.

Phew, that was exhausting...

 

[droiduzr2]

Unfortunately the US has always been at the crossroads of Capitalism vs Social Responsiblity.

Most US citizens will tell you that they do not want the federal government to interfere with anything. Unfortunately this sometime leads to issues such as the breakdown of the economy and of course the out of control cost of healthcare. It's just like professional athletes - they keep making more because we pay them more. Stop going to the games and let's see what happens.

Personally I believe that the US and it's legislators have totally lost sight of the Constitution (except of course when it favors them). The preamble clearly states that the Federal Government is to help provide for the Common Good.

As such I clearly would support government involvement in areas such as healthcare. Mind you, I am not endorsing Obamacare. His reform will not help anything.

Our government refuses to actually find the root cause of high healthcare. Like the example above with atheletes I believe we have simply caved to the demands of so called health care professional and pay what ever they demand.

Having said that, friends of mine in the health care world point to how much doctors and hospitals have to swallow to provide care of people who do not have insurance.

My solution would be to get rid of Social Security as forced savings. Instead use the money collected to pay for national health care to cover those that can't afford insurance. It's not about making insurance more affordable, that is not the root cause.

I grew up in a small Latin American country. They have socialized medicine. There, every doctor (from the most renowned neurosurgeon to the backwater guy) has to give 50% of their time to national healtcare. They still make more than enough money in their private practice. Interestingly enough there are no issues with the cost of healthcare. And before you all go jumping around, there are no issues with waiting to see a doctor or having the proper procedures done, or anything else. All their facilities are modern and up to date. So much so that many americans travel there for procedures. In the majority of cases the american insurance companies love this because of the lower cost.

BTW, my issues are not with the office of the President, there is not much that person can do. It is with the congress people who do very little for their constituency and only care for what benefits them. Why are they exempt from paying social security (even as I hate SS), why are they elegible for full pension after only 2 years of service, why are they allowed to take off six months every year, why should they be allowed to start campaining for re-election a year ahead of time.

I say we make them work all year and have 10 days vacation like all the rest of the people. Limit terms, I don't like career politicians. And as much as I hate the british social system I like the fact that they only allow campaigning for 30 prior to elections and no fund raising prior to that.

So until some one in the US can beat some sense into our politicians, and make them realize that they have completely forgotten their charter we may never solve these issues.

Phew, that was exhausting...

You provide solid points. America needs more people like you and more like you running the country.

As for Rich Canadians going to other parts of the world for treatment. Guess what, there is ALWAYS some place that can do something better and or cheaper. Cuba has some of not the best Neurosurgeons in the world but even though there is a blockade I bet you RICH Americans made it there or just had those Doctors go to another country.

This is not about 2% it's about providing a base system that covers 100%. Are you super wealthy. Why do you care where a rich person goes for care, it's their money?

Perhaps they should focus on fixing the Education system FIRST because until people are a bit smarter to try to understand the big picture or competing thoughts, you will be stuck in first gear.

You raise solid points about Congress and all the WELFARE they get...is that for real, they get a FULL PENSION for only 2 years of service...WTF??? lol... It's funny how NONE of them renounces all the SOCIAL PROGRAMS they and their families benefit from.

 

[byteware]

Perhaps they should focus on fixing the Education system FIRST because until people are a bit smarter to try to understand the big picture or competing thoughts, you will be stuck in first gear.

You do realize that you are struggling to PAY for your health care system. Even with your astronomically high taxes... you still can't afford what you are offering your citizens.

Quebec stirs health-care debate with proposed user fee - The Globe and Mail

Quebec turned its back on leading health care reform in Canada

I could go on, but your health care system is in financial trouble.

I find it pretty arrogant that you would lecture anyone about health care, when you can't afford your system even when you tax your citizens at about 50%.

 

[droiduzr2]

You do realize that you are struggling to PAY for your health care system. Even with your astronomically high taxes... you still can't afford what you are offering your citizens.

Quebec stirs health-care debate with proposed user fee - The Globe and Mail

Quebec turned its back on leading health care reform in Canada

I could go on, but your health care system is in financial trouble.

I find it pretty arrogant that you would lecture anyone about health care, when you can't afford your system even when you tax your citizens at about 50%.

That's cute. You googles 2 articles and now you know so much about Canada.

I will keep this brief...you are WRONG.

This country was founded with that system.
Canadians KNOW how to tighten their belts and do with less so their kids and country will be better in the future. Canadians buy a SMALL car first...know why...to CONSERVE resources.

btw- Since you focused on Quebec...they have possibly the BEST Childcare system in the world...Daycare is $1 A DAY...along with a solid Early Childhood Education System.

Why don't you go google who has the BEST BANKING SYSTEM in the world and which country pretty much was recession proof?

Keep deflecting I am sure everything will work out.
btw- How is your Mandarin and Hindi classes coming along?
Quikc run out and blow 50-55% of your budget on building a new super plane that you can dog fight with yourself. That will get you far. Keep living in the past...I bet you though color tv's were a fad too.

You do realize that the US buys power from Canada.
Water will be an issue you will see shortly...don't worry we have LOTS...how about you...oh wait that will be privatised shortly...google Bektel and South America.

Bush already had you in a DEFICIT from the surplus he got by the end of his first term...BUT you RELECTED him for 4 more years to RUN it up more...uhm yeah...that made sense. Did you find those WMD's yet in Iraq?

How long did you live in Canada? If so where?
If you have not then seriously you do NOT KNOW WTF you are talking about.

 

[Mr. Boom]

What i want to know is ...Who are you trying to convince? Us, or yourself?


With all your arguments, you still have to understand that the US is NOT Canada, and on November 2, US Citizens soundly rejected Gov't run health care.
We don't want it, no matter how good you might think it is.

 

[Slug]

Okay, enough is enough.

This has the makings of a good discussion/debate, but please refrain from either insulting or ridiculing other contributors, or throwing unrelated subjects into the mix. Keep it on-topic and respectful, in line with the forum rules, and we'll all remain on friendly terms.

 

[batgeek]

all i hear is when reading this thread is, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs'.


hmmmmm.

 

[SoundQcar]

all i hear is when reading this thread is, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs'.


hmmmmm.

Precisely!

 

[droiduzr2]

all i hear is when reading this thread is, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs'.


hmmmmm.

So who pays the medical bill for a child born with a birth defect?
Who pays for a child that end up with some disease?
Who pays for a child that needs a heart transplant?

Who pays for the old people/seniors that worked their entire life, paid taxes, saved but had their 401k plan stolen from them yet at a young 60 they need hip replacement or heart surgery, god forbid cancer treatment?

I guess it's a matter of a moral beliefs.
Ghandi said be the change that you want to see in this world.
I have no issues parting with a few dollars to ensure my fellow citizens, especially children are taken care in time of need.
Yes, there will always be scamers and abusers of a system but that's on them and not me. We got laws for them or should where they end up in jail. I sleep better at night knowing that God forbid something happens to me or my family...WE ARE COVERED and as such the society here relies on each other to ensure that a tragedy or dire need for 1 is softened and spread amongst all because you NEVER KNOW when you could be that 1.

A nation is only as strong as it's citizens are healthy and educated.

 

[batgeek]

then may the healthy and educated(successful) survive to lead the country without the burden of the lessers slowing them down.

 

[Mr. Boom]

Healthcare is NOT a right, yet anyone can receive care whether they can pay or not.
Health Insurance is also not a right, but is available for those who wish to make their own way, and not suckle the gov't teat.

There is no mandate in the US that says the Gov't must take care of you. Although there are some who think they should.

We lose our right to self determination when the Gov't tries to get involved in the decisions that we as a free people reserve to make ourselves!

NO Gov't Healthcare in the US!! If in doubt, see above^^

EDIT: This is really not a Healthcare debate, but an ideological one, IMO

 

[droiduzr2]

Healthcare is NOT a right, yet anyone can receive care whether they can pay or not.
Health Insurance is also not a right, but is available for those who wish to make their own way, and not suckle the gov't teat.

There is no mandate in the US that says the Gov't must take care of you. Although there are some who think they should.

We lose our right to self determination when the Gov't tries to get involved in the decisions that we as a free people reserve to make ourselves!

NO Gov't Healthcare in the US!! If in doubt, see above^^

EDIT: This is really not a Healthcare debate, but an ideological one, IMO

Then you might as well substitute the word public school in place of healthcare then. Where does it say that everyone is entitled to a tax payer Government run school system but you have that...funny that.

None of you opposing this has debated MERITS to your points of view. I made the statement that you are actually LOSING money because your employer has to pay HMO's instead of giving you a pay raise. Do you think employers will be able to keep that up?
So in a way you ARE implementing a Socialist system at work because you POOL your resources to cover all of you.

It won't be long before business's tell you NO coverage, don't like it, tough go some place else...now what, some place else will have the SAME thing to tell you.

The goal of of a nation is to build up in every area that makes the NATION stronger...it's seems and the data shows you are going the wrong way. Small business used to create most of the US jobs...but now they can't even get credit or loans to start or go bigger YET those same banks are giving money away to Multinational corporations.

 

[Mr. Boom]

Then you might as well substitute the word public school in place of healthcare then. Where does it say that everyone is entitled to a tax payer Government run school system but you have that...funny that.

None of you opposing this has debated MERITS to your points of view. I made the statement that you are actually LOSING money because your employer has to pay HMO's instead of giving you a pay raise. Do you think employers will be able to keep that up?
So in a way you ARE implementing a Socialist system at work because you POOL your resources to cover all of you.

It won't be long before business's tell you NO coverage, don't like it, tough go some place else...now what, some place else will have the SAME thing to tell you.

The goal of of a nation is to build up in every area that makes the NATION stronger...it's seems and the data shows you are going the wrong way. Small business used to create most of the US jobs...but now they can't even get credit or loans to start or go bigger YET those same banks are giving money away to Multinational corporations.

More opinion and talking points and data points skewed to favor your argument.

Like i said earlier, America rejected Obamacare on November 2nd. Repeal and/or replace is in the works. NO ONE tells the American public what they HAVE to do, against their will, without paying the price at the polls.

Healthcare and education are apples and oranges. Personally, i would favor a private system. That way i can assure my children get the best education I can afford, not what the Gov't supplies to us. Private industry will always be better than State run Industry.
So i still think this is an ideological debate.

 

[batgeek]

this is an ideological debate

exactly.

why is individual success always deemed evil by progressives?

 

[electric monk]

Like i said earlier, America rejected Obamacare on November 2nd.

Data to back that talking point, please.

 

[Mr. Boom]

Data to back that talking point, please.

Election results. Huge gains in the House and modest gains in the Senate. Mostly due to Obamacare and the economy.

 

[Mr. Boom]

exactly.

why is individual success always deemed evil by progressives?

It's the whole Marxist thingy that they don't want to admit.

 

[electric monk]

Show me the exit polls that validate your opinion.

 

[electric monk]

And give the name calling a rest, eh?

 

[Mr. Boom]

I don't believe that i called anyone a name. And you need exit poll data to see who won elections? ANd why?

You don't want to admit that the majority of Americans reject MArxism and Socialism?