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Muslim world: Religion is again being used as a political tool.

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  1. OutofDate1980

    OutofDate1980 Well-Known Member

  2. jefboyardee

    jefboyardee Well-Known Member

    I believe that we need an administration that doesn
  3. Bob Maxey

    Bob Maxey Well-Known Member

  4. Bob Maxey

    Bob Maxey Well-Known Member

  5. OutofDate1980

    OutofDate1980 Well-Known Member

    You're relying on an anonymous poster from this site: http://androidforums.com/politics-current-affairs/552909-domestic-propaganda.html#post4955591

    Well I guess it's better than a paid front group. http://androidforums.com/politics-current-affairs/598370-voting-fraud.html#post4802258
  6. OutofDate1980

    OutofDate1980 Well-Known Member

    Suggest you don't rely on lobbyist front groups as a source.

    Wingnuts Falsely Claim Obama Administration Forbade Marines From Carrying Live Ammo | Mother Jones

    From: Cross, Alex Maj OLA, LA-41B
    Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:55 PM
    To: Cross, Alex Maj OLA, LA-41B
    Subject: Marines in Libya and Egypt

    Ladies and Gentlemen-
    The following information is provided regarding Marine involvement in the recent actions in Egypt and Libya:

    -The Ambassador did not impose restrictions on weapons or weapons status on the Marine Corps Embassy Security Group (MCESG) detachment. The MCESG Marines in Cairo were allowed to have live ammunition in their weapons. The Ambassador and Regional Security Officer have been completely and appropriately engaged with the security situation. Reports of Marines not being able to have their weapons loaded per direction from the Ambassador are not accurate.

    - The Marine Corps does not establish Rules of Engagement (ROE). Nonetheless, ROE is classified and release of that information would jeopardize the Marines and U.S. interests. Any further inquiry should be directed to the State Department, since Marine security guards report to the ambassador not to a military commander.

    -As reported in open sources, approximately 2000 personnel were protesting outside the U.S. Embassy and six individuals entered Embassy grounds. The Marines quickly took control of these six individuals and subsequently turned them over to local security officials.
    -There were no Marines injured in this, or other actions in Cairo.
    -There are no Marine dependents in Cairo.
  7. PH8AL

    PH8AL Well-Known Member

    Sorry but your assertion that Islam is being hijacked by fanatics for political purpose is niaveat best and shows an ignorance born of not being able to look past your own political views.

    If you are muslim you can not cherry pick what parts of the Koran you want to follow. Its either the word of God or it is not. If you believe its not are you really a muslim? No! If it is the word of god given to guide you we are back to cherry picking. If you believe it is the word of god you must accept the entire work not just what you like.

    What we keep hearing reffered to as a fringe minority are actually following the Koran not hijacking it. Their point about moderates being bad muslims is a true statement because if you don't take the Koran literally what are you left with? Your not really a muslim.

    The same exact arguement can be made of the Bible. The fact Christians are not doing this kind of crap anymore has nothing to do with them evolving as a religion. Their was an enlightenment where many people turned against theocratic rule and founded secular democracies where people have freedom of religion but a seperation between religion and state to ensure the freedom of all beliefs and the rule by none
  8. ElasticNinja

    ElasticNinja Well-Known Member

    Ah yes, so you see that Christianity and Islam, both having the same base, are both quite dangerous and it takes history to show believers this.
  9. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Well-Known Member

    I work with several Muslims. Strangely enough, none of them are actively trying to kill me. Or, if they are, it's probably for work related reasons, not religion related ones.
  10. ElasticNinja

    ElasticNinja Well-Known Member

    I dont know, I've sat next to Muslim acquaintances many times, had Muslim doctors and nurses examine me, and I had a guy who's name was Jihad give me general anesthetic.
    I'm pretty sure they were all plotting to kill me, just blundered. I mean, I do believe in secular liberal democracy and think Islam is dumb and have crude drawings of Mohammad in copy books.
  11. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Well-Known Member

    I've never understood the general hatred/dislike for all religion. I have ambivalent feelings toward Islam. While I may disagree with their worldview, my opinion is that as long as they leave me alone, I'll leave them alone and we can all get along. Plenty of room in the world for many different religions as long as they're not harming anyone.
  12. OutofDate1980

    OutofDate1980 Well-Known Member

    My naivety doesn't extend to the ignorance of the use of a spell checker. Ad hominem is a tactic of a religious fanatic.

    Hamid Dabashi is Hagop Kevorkian Professor of Iranian Studies and Comparative Literature at Columbia University the author cited in http://androidforums.com/politics-c...in-being-used-political-tool.html#post4954203 has a great deal more credibility than you.
    Ever hear of the Inquisition ? Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Separation of Church & State is still controversial in the United States: Separation of church and state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Theocracy has a long history: Theocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The literal interpretation of the Bible (there several flavors) is associated with some Christian sects: Biblical literalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Islam is a religion and has different sects. Islam has good and bad traits just like any other religion and being "hijacked" for political purposes is not uncommon for any religion.
  13. PH8AL

    PH8AL Well-Known Member

    I don't dislike all religions just ones that profess a penalty for not believing in their dogma.
    Jainism is a beautiful religion. Hinduism is kinda silly but a lot of fun to explore if you get my meaning.
    Its these intolerant, bigoted religions that are forever proselytizing that I have an issue with. I could leave it alone if they kept it out of the public sphere and were not hell bent on forcing their views and values on to people who do not want it.
    So yes I hate Christianity and Islam. I see them both as a threat to my secular way of life. I really don't care what flavor some one believes because it all boils down to the same thing.
  14. PH8AL

    PH8AL Well-Known Member

    Ok ad hominen. 1st I did not insult your character to score a debate point. You are often very partisan and while sometimes I agree with you deeply other times I wish you would step off your liberal high horse long enough to step back and look at a bigger picture. Ultra parasitism is a major pet peeve of mine.

    My credibility vs the Doctors? There are many people with PHDs that make a lot of claims that when brought under the mildest of scrutiny fall flat.
    I disagree on this point for 2 reasons that I think are plain common sense.
    1 calling Islam a religion is an ignorant understatement. Islam is a Governmental System complete with laws, courts and punishments. It is political at its nature so cannot be hijacked for political reasons.
    2 the terrorists who are being accused of hijacking it are indeed following a strict interpretation of the Koran. You can't hijack yourself. They are not outside the teachings of any sect and the spread of their power through their pseudo religion is the point of their politics.
    That falls short of the definition of Hijacking.

    Not sure about where you are going with the Inquisition thing. Yeah you lost me there. But to answer, yes I have and it ranks high on my list of why I said what I said about Christians not evolving to their more peaceful state today by choice but because the rest of the people dealing with them got tired of that.

    Im trying real hard not to take this as you preaching or trying to school me here.

    Separation of church and state is only being debated today because Christians in America can not be content with leaving their religion in their private lives. Which I am sure I can give you ample evidence for just by pointing you to the latest school lawsuits in Tennessee and Georgia were schools can now present Creationism as a valid counter view to Evolution in science classes Not social studies or literature where I personally don't have a problem with them being studied equally with other religions. Nope, science class where no religion can be tolerated.
    Funny talking about this when I am on my way to my daughters school tomorrow to talk with the principal about her SCIENCE teacher dismissing evolution as silly and following that with here assertion that she is a Christian and believes the Bible but the state says they have to cover evolution so she had them read that 2 pages quietly and thats it. Also to be discussed in this meeting are people coming into the school at lunch time and setting up tables to pass out Christian propaganda to the students. During school hours mind you.

    So yeah I have nothing to fear concerning my rights to a secular state.

    Back to your Double dig with "ad Hominem"

    Call my a Fanatic. I'll take it. Call me a Religious Fanatic. Proudly, Atheism is a religious belief in that is a belief concerning religion. Call me bigoted. I'll take that as well. I strait don't care what Muslims or Christians have to say about much because they proscribe to a religion that is ignorant and breeds ignorant so yes I tend to dismiss their views out of hand. I know what the Bible says because Ive read it, lost my stomach half way through the Koran so feel no need to hear a Christian view as it will just be reciting the Good Book and I'm sorry if you want to know about the ignorance of Islam turn on the news or surf the net for 10 minutes.
  15. Bob Maxey

    Bob Maxey Well-Known Member

    Then come join the Church of the Rascally bob. (bob is in lower case because he is not a deity or god or even god like) We have a pot luck on Sunday (bring pie if possible . . . we always run out of pie for some reason) and every month, we have free beer Saturday.
  16. PH8AL

    PH8AL Well-Known Member

    Sorry currently busy studying Rastafarianism. Its taking forever because I can't remember what we studied last session.
    Bob Maxey likes this.
  17. OutofDate1980

    OutofDate1980 Well-Known Member

    Well, by your definition I'm ignorant. Oh well, that's true, I'm ignorant on many subjects, including Islam, etc... and other folklore and myths.
  18. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Well-Known Member

    That's where I disagree with you. For the record, I'm Christian myself and have studied other religions like Islam and Hinduism. Not so familiar with Eastern religions TBH and definitely more familiar with the Western triad. I still think the world is a big enough place for Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, secularists, atheists, agnostics and anyone else to live in. I don't see why we can't just politely disagree and go our merry ways. Yes, you may think it's bad that a Christian tells you you're going to hell. So what. The Muslim will tell the Christian the same thing. Maybe the Muslim is right. Maybe the atheist is right. Maybe everyone is right. Maybe everyone is wrong. In any case, it's a big world, can't we just disagree civilly?
  19. PH8AL

    PH8AL Well-Known Member

    I would love for that to be the case. Eastern Religions are interesting to study but at the end you have to ask if it was worth the time. Hinduism is a bit more interesting because of its obsession with sexual acts as spiritual acts.

    The problem is that the very nature of Christian and Islamic belief does not allow for other beliefs. If it was as simple as them telling me I was going to hell I could deal with that to, even though that gets annoying after a minute.

    I will change the frame of my opinion here to a similar argument that removes religion but still illustrates the point by using a topic I do believe you and I are in agreement on.
    I equate it to the Liberal belief that we must be saved from ourselves. Which often comes across as an elitist mindset that we are to stupid to choose the right paths for ourselves and must have it dictated by the state. They are seeking to use the Government to control behavior that does not harm them but simply doesn't line up with their views.

    Now substitute the word Liberal with Christian or Muslim and it fits perfectly.

    Both groups are actively trying to assert control over the general public with a moral view they get from their religion. This by default can only mean that they believe an elitist view that no one can live a moral life with out their religion.

    I am not speaking about individuals here as you do have a pretty moderate view even though you claim you are Christian and yes some Christians come down on my side of the fence. My own parents who are Fundamentalist Baptists have always supported separation of Church and State because there is so much diversity in Christianity that they worried that if religion was allowed to be preached in school it just might not be their version which to them was a bigger threat than science. That was before this magic word Christian evolved to a catch all big tent unifying people with far different views under the same banner for purely political reasons.

    I did not wake up one day and say I hate religion. My activist even fanatical view point is in direct response to my secular beliefs being under constant threat from groups that want to control my private life when I am harming no one.
    The real sad thing about it is if Christians would live and let live I actually agree with them on a few points that I would actively get out and support.

    Not to side track the discussion with a hot button issue but the perfect example of this is abortion.
    From an Atheists scientific view point I do believe it is murder. Science completely supports that life begins at the moment of conception. We live in an age where women do have a choice, its called being responsible and preventing pregnancy from happening in the 1st place. And while yes I know that birth control is not 100% effective individually you can supplement them with all kinds of spermicides and condoms and the like to get it to 99.999999999....%. Then that smallest chance can further be whittled away by understanding their own bodies cycles and not having sex right before or during ovulation.. It all hinges on personal responsibility.

    Cases of rape or molestation are a lot stickier. The new life growing in the womb that is in fact a separate sentient being created at the moment sperm finds egg did not rape any one but will get the death penalty for the crime of living.
    But here is the pivot point for compromise where neither side gets what they want which is the biggest indicator you have found fair middle ground.
    Even though I have a strong feeling about it I could leave it as the best we could do. But Christian Extremist can't compromise because their god is right and you can't compromise with God so they have launched a campaign from a point of intolerance that has led to deaths and has crippled our government.

    This is the issue that killed live and let live in this country. It truly is an issue being fought by the extremes that every one is forced to take a side in.
  20. PH8AL

    PH8AL Well-Known Member

    Again with Ad Hominem. Is this just a Liberal catch phrase you have adopted or have you looked up its definition.

    Also its funny how you had to skip huge blocks of my post to get to Ad Hominem here.
    Im not going to give you the definition because dictionary dot com is not hard to find.

    I will take the challenge presented though. I gave my opinion on what I thought of a topic and that I do in fact believe that to be an ignorant view as it ignores basic evidence that is not even controversial.
    I did not give this opinion to one up in an argument for the sake of argument where I could not support something with a fact.

    If you study the origins of Islam which you your self just professed you haven't than you would understand that the religion was a sampling of several theologies that coalesced around a military campaign to gain dominance in a region. Which in fact is why you see this stubborn determination today that every one must be converted to Islam or suffer real world consequences followed be an eternity of punishment in an after life.
    This is why you can also not separate Islam and Politics in the Middle East. It is a complete form of strict Government.
    It claims a Law that has set punishments for crimes. In this it is no different than our own System. It also claims to be the highest authority in the land, comparable to our own Federal Government.

    In every other slice of society when something is proven false we call it false and no longer permit it.

    Example from current affairs debate. If it was proven tomorrow that vaccines in fact are the cause of autism we would immediately stop using them. Right?

    Why is it that religion gets a free pass here?

    So to sum up and come directly back to what my point is now. You are the original poster of this thread making a claim that I have completely debased with fact. You have went further to claim ignorance of the original topic that you posted on.

    Simple solution: don't create threads about controversial topics you do not understand and then not expect to get your argument chewed to bits and spit back at you.
  21. OutofDate1980

    OutofDate1980 Well-Known Member

    You stated "1 calling Islam a religion is an ignorant understatement." Islam is a religion in the U.S. and is a 501(c)(3) organization. I conjecture when any religion gets a chance it will dominate government and eliminate any competition.

    Islam in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Thomas Jefferson defended religious freedom in America including those of Muslims. Jefferson explicitly mentioned Muslims when writing about the movement for religious freedom in Virginia. In his autobiography Jefferson wrote "[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom... was finally passed,... a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word 'Jesus Christ,' so that it should read 'a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.' The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination."[29] While President, Jefferson also participated in an iftar with the Ambassador of Tunisia in 1809.[30]
  22. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Well-Known Member

    Since when is Islam a 501c3? The entire religion is a non-profit?
  23. OutofDate1980

    OutofDate1980 Well-Known Member

    Mosques, centers, etc. Don't *believe* there is a centralized hierarchy like the LDS, Catholics, etc.
  24. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Well-Known Member

    Problem with that is?
  25. OutofDate1980

    OutofDate1980 Well-Known Member

    Haven't a clue. Is there a problem ?

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