Voting Fraud

[OutofDate1980]

In that case you'd just cast a provisional ballot. After the fact they'd verify you were who you say you were and your vote would count. Same thing as if you show up at the poll and you haven't registered to vote.

Provisional ballot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the 2004 US Presidential Election, controversy arose out of arguments regarding the interpretation of the criteria for determining the eligibility of voters using provisional ballots. Many allege that these discrepancies of interpretations, particularly in Ohio, may have been a deciding factor in the outcome of the election. In the 2004 election, at least 1.9 million provisional ballots were cast, and 676,000 were never counted due to various states' rules on counting provisional ballots.[5]

Studies of the use of provisional ballots in the 2006 general election in the United States show that around 21% of provisional ballots were rejected, where the majority of rejected ballots were cast by registered voters and the majority of rejections were for reasons that were preventable.[6]

 

[Techgeek81]

:stupid:

Sampling (statistics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know what sampling is. I asked you to substantiate your statement about how many people I know. Alternatively, you could admit you may have mistaken about that point.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Provisional ballot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the 2004 US Presidential Election, controversy arose out of arguments regarding the interpretation of the criteria for determining the eligibility of voters using provisional ballots. Many allege that these discrepancies of interpretations, particularly in Ohio, may have been a deciding factor in the outcome of the election. In the 2004 election, at least 1.9 million provisional ballots were cast, and 676,000 were never counted due to various states' rules on counting provisional ballots.[5]

Studies of the use of provisional ballots in the 2006 general election in the United States show that around 21% of provisional ballots were rejected, where the majority of rejected ballots were cast by registered voters and the majority of rejections were for reasons that were preventable.[6]

Not sure what your point is how this is relevant given that there were no voter ID laws in Ohio in 2004.

 

[OutofDate1980]

2008 voter-intimidation case against New Black Panthers riles the right

Caller to Chris Plante Show Claims Unions are Busing People from Michigan Into Wisconsin to Commit Voter Fraud | Video | TheBlaze.com

There you go: two links.

Not sure why I bothered: you'll disregard whatever disagrees with your beliefs anyway. I've seen that a number of times, on both sides of the political spectrum...

From the WP citation.
"Abigail Thernstrom, a commission member and a senior fellow at the conservative Manhattan Institute, called it "small potatoes" and said conservatives should pursue more important issues against the Obama administration. The case, she pointed out, invokes a narrow and rarely used provision of the 1965 Voting Rights Act, which has been used successfully to prosecute only three times since its passage.

"If you want to criticize [Attorney General] Eric Holder, there are lots of grounds on which to criticize him," she said. "Why waste your breath on this one?"

Thernstrom said that she did not find Adams's testimony convincing and that the facts of the case raised doubts in her mind, noting that the Black Panthers were standing in front of a majority-black precinct that had voted overwhelmingly for Democrats in previous elections -- not a prime spot for intimidating white voters.""

From the Blaze citation.
"UPDATE: The Right Scoop notes this important piece of information, which casts extraordinary doubt on the call:
This doesn

 

[OutofDate1980]

Not sure what your point is how this is relevant given that there were no voter ID laws in Ohio in 2004.

You brought up provisional ballots and they currently exist with or without voter ID laws.

A provisional ballot vote may not be counted though no fault of the registered voter

 

[OutofDate1980]

I know what sampling is. I asked you to substantiate your statement about how many people I know. Alternatively, you could admit you may have mistaken about that point.

You used the term "all the people I know", therefore sample size is irrelevant.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]You can keep on digging or read the Wikipedia citation. We are talking about a national population, which requires a national sample within a defined period of time.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Strings]

Yep, a Leftist True Believer: "don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up"

I'm out: I have much better things to do with my time

 

[Techgeek81]

You used the term "all the people I know", therefore sample size is irrelevant.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]You can keep on digging or read the Wikipedia citation. We are talking about a national population, which requires a national sample within a defined period of time.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Not to nitpick but "all the people I know" is a phrase, not a term.

More importantly, the problem is that you stated something as a fact without having a factual base for it.

For all you know, I could have spent my summers in college traveling the country taking polls in shopping malls. If I included all of those people in "all the people I know" because I had met them, learned their names and spoken with them for a few minutes, then my sample size would be significant, national and within the time that I was in college.

OR

I could be using random, anecdotal evidence.

The problem is that you don't know which of the two is the case but you stated your position on my statement as an absolute without verifying first.

You also haven't responded to the free ID thing yet. Should I just assume we're going to ignore that because it disproves your argument about poll taxes? The money (tax) is removed from the equation so it can't be a poll tax but you need it to be a poll tax in order for your argument to make sense so we won't talk about the actual facts?

Is that how this debate works?

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm new to the forum. I'm just trying to learn the rules.

 

[OutofDate1980]

1. Being there is a requisite to vote. Unless, of course, you cast an absentee ballot but then you have to put a stamp on the envelope and that costs money and OH GOD! It's a poll tax (even though it isn't).

Absentee voting is not a requirement for voting. You sure your state doesn't give absentee voters a postage paid return envelope ?

2. Are you just ignoring the fact that I have stated multiple times that, at least in my state which is the one I am most familiar with, the required ID is free of charge to anyone of voting age? All you need to do is walk into the DMV and say "I want an ID card" and they give you one.

South Carolina required ID is blocked. You may need to do more that "I want an ID card", but you can always supply a link.

Voter ID is a distraction on a nonexistent problem to avoid the real issue of voter machine fraud, which none of the Voter ID scaremongers are willing or able to address.

 

[OutofDate1980]

Yep, a Leftist True Believer: "don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up"

I'm out: I have much better things to do with my time

Can't argue the facts, as supplied by your cited sources. Don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you.

 

[OutofDate1980]

Not to nitpick but "all the people I know" is a phrase, not a term.

More importantly, the problem is that you stated something as a fact without having a factual base for it.

For all you know, I could have spent my summers in college traveling the country taking polls in shopping malls. If I included all of those people in "all the people I know" because I had met them, learned their names and spoken with them for a few minutes, then my sample size would be significant, national and within the time that I was in college.

OR

I could be using random, anecdotal evidence.

The problem is that you don't know which of the two is the case but you stated your position on my statement as an absolute without verifying first.

You also haven't responded to the free ID thing yet. Should I just assume we're going to ignore that because it disproves your argument about poll taxes? The money (tax) is removed from the equation so it can't be a poll tax but you need it to be a poll tax in order for your argument to make sense so we won't talk about the actual facts?

Is that how this debate works?

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm new to the forum. I'm just trying to learn the rules.

Let's keep focused. You did make this statement http://androidforums.com/politics-current-affairs/598370-voting-fraud-2.html#post4830114

This is a statement, not a phase or term, stop flip-flopping.

Notice the pronoun "I", "I" selected the criteria of people "I" know to reach the conclusion that voter ID is not a suppression of citizens voting.

I replied, "The people you know are not a representative sample of the population."

Therefore the sample of the population you provided, now you have expanded, people "I know", to shopping malls across all 50 states I polled still has bias and random sampling issues. Therefore is not representative, much less any basis in reality.

 

[El Presidente]

I'm convinced, at this point, of many things. One of those is that certain people haven't read the rules. Whilst they're slightly relaxed in the PCA section and we encourage healthy debate, members are still expected to to attack issues, not each other.

Keep that last sentence in mind before posting please.

Any issues, feel free to drop me a PM.

 

[Techgeek81]

According to THIS WEBSITE, these states require photo ID. Here are links to those states websites which talk about the fees/costs/poll taxes involved in obtaining said photo ID. Note: in every state, the fee is waived for ID only for voting purposes.

If people aren't actually being charged or paying for the ID, how exactly is it a poll tax?

Pennsylvania

PennDOT Driver and Vehicle Services - Personalized (Vanity) License Plate Availability

"$13.50 fee for acquiring an Identification Card will be waived for individuals completing the Oath/ Affirmation Voter ID form"

Tennessee

Tennessee Department of Safety and Homeland Security: Voter Photo ID

"If you are a registered voter and do not have a government-issued photo ID, the Department of Safety and Homeland Security will provide you with a photo ID at no charge."

Georgia

Fees and Terms

"Georgia ID Card for Voting Purposes Only 8 years No Fee when Qualified"

Indiana

BMV: Identification Cards

"Identification card for voting purposes

New or renewed.
Valid for six years.

FREE"

Kansas

http://www.ksrevenue.org/pdf/DE-VID1.pdf

Link to the form that waives the fee for a voter ID card

 

[OutofDate1980]

Another example of Republicans to make voting by American workers more difficult.

Republican Voter Suppression Campaign Rolls Back Early Voting

Early voting started off a wildly popular, bipartisan element of voting reform. Indeed, of all the voting reforms this country has seen over the last decades, early voting is easily the most unassailable. It makes voting more convenient for the public and makes Election Day easier for election officials. Because it generally happens at board of elections offices, it takes notoriously unreliable volunteer poll workers out of the picture.

But Republican leaders cooled on the idea after 2008. "It just so happened that this was the first time that early voting had been used in large numbers to mobilize African American and Latino voters," said Wendy Weiser, who directs the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law.

 

[Apoplectic1]

The Republicans are both attempting to suppress legal voting and manipulate vote counting. We have one Republican addressing voter suppression.

http://androidforums.com/politics-current-affairs/598370-voting-fraud.html#post4801282

I also know a guy who insists the holocaust never happened and that 911 was really a UFO crash that was covered up by the US government.

How is this any less of a conspiracy theory?

 

[cjr72]

I also know a guy who insists the holocaust never happened and that 911 was really a UFO crash that was covered up by the US government.

How is this any less of a conspiracy theory?

Conspiracy theory or not it will provide a convenient ready-made excuse for any Democrat losses in November.

 

[OutofDate1980]

I also know a guy who insists the holocaust never happened and that 911 was really a UFO crash that was covered up by the US government.

How is this any less of a conspiracy theory?

Ever heard of Jim Crow laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ?

 

[OutofDate1980]

According to THIS WEBSITE, these states require photo ID. Here are links to those states websites which talk about the fees/costs/poll taxes involved in obtaining said photo ID. Note: in every state, the fee is waived for ID only for voting purposes.

If people aren't actually being charged or paying for the ID, how exactly is it a poll tax?

Pennsylvania

PennDOT Driver and Vehicle Services - Personalized (Vanity) License Plate Availability

"$13.50 fee for acquiring an Identification Card will be waived for individuals completing the Oath/ Affirmation Voter ID form"

Tennessee

Tennessee Department of Safety and Homeland Security: Voter Photo ID

"If you are a registered voter and do not have a government-issued photo ID, the Department of Safety and Homeland Security will provide you with a photo ID at no charge."

Georgia

Fees and Terms

"Georgia ID Card for Voting Purposes Only 8 years No Fee when Qualified"

Indiana

BMV: Identification Cards

"Identification card for voting purposes

New or renewed.
Valid for six years.

FREE"

Kansas

http://www.ksrevenue.org/pdf/DE-VID1.pdf

Link to the form that waives the fee for a voter ID card

Again, the scaremongers refuse to address the real problem, counting the vote, rather they are attempting to sow fear of a bogeyman to deny working class citizens of their right to vote.

Many locations to obtain the voter ID cards are part time, only opened a few week days during business hours a week. Some are open only one day every 2 months.

It's not unusual to spend an entire day to obtain, plus the expense of obtaining supporting documents.

How much are states spending on voter education on voter ID ?

The Republicans are spending a lot of taxpayers money on lawyers to suppress citizens right to vote.

State continuing to waste money defending voter ID law | Palmetto Public Record

"Remember, all of this money is being spent to defend a law that solves a problem that has been proven not to exist. With South Carolina leaders attempting to balance the state budget on the backs of its workers, fiscal conservatives should be asking themselves whether such an unnecessary expense is really worth it."

 

[Techgeek81]

Again, the scaremongers refuse to address the real problem, counting the vote, rather they are attempting to sow fear of a bogeyman to deny working class citizens of their right to vote.

You called it a poll tax. A poll tax is any money charged for voting. I posted links proving that no money is charged for the necessary ID in the states that require it. How does that make me a scaremonger?

Many locations to obtain the voter ID cards are part time, only opened a few week days during business hours a week. Some are open only one day every 2 months.

It's not unusual to spend an entire day to obtain, plus the expense of obtaining supporting documents.

You can only vote for president for 12 hours one day every four years. During the last presidential election, I stood on line to cast my ballot for 5 hours due to high turn out because of the highly motivated electorate. They were motivated by the left. According to your logic, the system AND the left are both infringing on my right to vote.

How much are states spending on voter education on voter ID ?

The Republicans are spending a lot of taxpayers money on lawyers to suppress citizens right to vote.

State continuing to waste money defending voter ID law | Palmetto Public Record

"Remember, all of this money is being spent to defend a law that solves a problem that has been proven not to exist. With South Carolina leaders attempting to balance the state budget on the backs of its workers, fiscal conservatives should be asking themselves whether such an unnecessary expense is really worth it."

The article doesn't say there has not been ANY fraud. It says there hasn't been much.

So, according to the same logic, airport security is not necessary because there isn't THAT MUCH airline hijacking. Sure there was that whole 9/11 thing but that was 11 years ago. Why should we still have to take our shoes off and sandwich bag our toothpaste in 2012? Right?

As to cost, everything costs money. Voter ID laws cost money. Elections cost money. President Obama's daughter's taxpayer funded class trips to Mexico cost money. Bill Clinton pardoning Marc Rich cost money...

The list goes on. Until waste stops on both sides, arguing about money seems kind of silly.

 

[Steven58]

Feel free to hotly disagree. But folks? If you attack each other? Expect swift and quick action to delete it and infract. Thanks!

Steven

 

[Apoplectic1]

Ever heard of Jim Crow laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ?

Yes, I have. You're honestly comparing checking ID to Jim Crow laws? Wow...

Again, the scaremongers refuse to address the real problem, counting the vote, rather they are attempting to sow fear of a bogeyman to deny working class citizens of their right to vote.

You have yet to show any real reason how this will stop any working class citizen from voting.

Many locations to obtain the voter ID cards are part time, only opened a few week days during business hours a week. Some are open only one day every 2 months.

It's not unusual to spend an entire day to obtain, plus the expense of obtaining supporting documents.

I don't know about other states, but in FL you just have to stroll into a DMV. While not the most pleasant experience in life, its not horrible. As long as you don't stroll in during peak hours (like right before they close on Friday) they can have you out in two hours or less. I did it just 4 weeks ago to have the address on my license changed. They're open 5 days a week save for major holidays and open from 9-6 I believe.

How much are states spending on voter education on voter ID ?

The Republicans are spending a lot of taxpayers money on lawyers to suppress citizens right to vote.

How much do they need to spend to educate people to the fact that "You need ID to vote". I suppose however much it takes to translate to spanish "Usted necesita una tarjeta de identificaci

 

[OutofDate1980]

You called it a poll tax. ...

That's an intentional mischaracterization at best. This is what I said http://androidforums.com/politics-current-affairs/598370-voting-fraud-2.html#post4830592[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

A poll tax is any money charged for voting. I posted links proving that no money is charged for the necessary ID in the states that require it. How does that make me a scaremonger? ...

Voter fraud is a near nonexistent problem, yet you keep repeating it's a problem with absolutely no evidence, that's called scaremongering. Yet you just ignore the real problem of voting machine fraud. You want to waste the government and citizens money and time for nothing. TN permits gun permits, but not student ID, wonder why ?

You can only vote for president for 12 hours one day every four years. During the last presidential election, I stood on line to cast my ballot for 5 hours due to high turn out because of the highly motivated electorate. They were motivated by the left. According to your logic, the system AND the left are both infringing on my right to vote. ...

Other citizens exercising their right to vote infringes YOUR rights. That's sad and pathetic.

The article doesn't say there has not been ANY fraud. It says there hasn't been much. ...

In South Caroline, there was none, from the cited article; "A nationwide analysis of voting data found exactly 10 reports of in-person voter fraud since 2000

 

[Steven58]

Getting too personal in here so I'm closing this thread as a pre-emptive action. If anyone disagrees or can give me a reasonable position as to why it should be reopened, please pm me.

Steven