Let's talk about sex

[ElasticNinja]

It's all speculation on how the child will turn out as a result of the parents allowing the child to have freedom to choose what he/she wants to play with, wear, hang out with, etc. etc. It's basically all IFs. There are many factors that will play into this child's life and many forms of socialization he/she will come across. The child will most likely be socialized by peers since peers tend to have the greatest influence after family. The social institution of education will also play a big role as the child starts going to school and teachers become a big player in their lives and social development.

I can guarantee you right now that socialization is not an agent of the development of sexual preference. There is absolutely no study done that proves any social institution influences sexual preference... unless you consider the wonderful report by the Catholic Scientific Institute.

Interestingly Roman Catholic studies always seem to get results contradictory to every other study
I certainly don't think that sexual preferences are particularly learnt.
I mean I played with dolls houses when I was younger and I turned out straight lol... although I do like wearing pink t-shirts and find boxing awful *Shadow experiences sexual awakening *

 

[Vihzel]

Interestingly Roman Catholic studies always seem to get results contradictory to every other study
I certainly don't think that sexual preferences are particularly learnt.
I mean I played with dolls houses when I was younger and I turned out straight lol... although I do like wearing pink t-shirts and find boxing awful *Shadow experiences sexual awakening *

Oh there are countless amount of cases where a boy will play with girl toys and later become a macho man. My roommate used to play with his sister's dollhouse and stuffed animals when he was younger and this past year he wouldn't stop bothering me about relationship problems with several different women over the year. hehe

I find it completely absurd that any parent would take what their child plays with as an indication of if he or she will turn out to be a homosexual. I must have confused the hell out of my parents then since I played with all sorts of toys from "girl toys", like stuffed animals and ponies, to "boy toys", like hot wheels and remote control cars. It's a harder time for boys and fathers if there's homophobic beliefs prevalent... not as much for girls. Just letting any homophobic fathers know... if you suspect your son might be gay... there is no amount of praying, brainwashing, counseling, etc. that can possibly be done to "turn" him straight.

 

[ElasticNinja]

It's a harder time for boys and fathers if there's homophobic beliefs prevalent... not as much for girls. Just letting any homophobic fathers know... if you suspect your son might be gay... there is no amount of praying, brainwashing, counseling, etc. that can possibly be done to "turn" him straight.

I think that's largely due to the fact that many father's try to form there kids into a super sportsman
My dad never cared about sport (it was my mom who would always bring my training and go to matches).. I don't think he'd care if I was gay, but I know many fathers that would die if their son was gay after "all that effort"

Oh and I think any mother would understand there daughter liking the girls far more than a father would understand their son liking girls

Women seem to be more comfortable accepting those of their own sex are sexy... guys aren't (cos by and large guys are fugly I guess)

 

[batgeek]

the parents are idiots. period.

 

[mpw]

the parents are idiots. period.

why? or haven't you bothered to think your 'argument' through that far?

 

[A.Nonymous]

It doesn't seem like their other two kids are doing terribly.

Well, the other two are named Jazz and Kio so that's not a great start. I've read that Jazz is often teased because he makes a point of telling people that he is a boy, but also likes to wear dresses and wears his hair long and in braids. He does not understand why other kids tease him for wearing dresses nor does he understand why people think he's a girl when (in his mind) he's obviously a boy. He may well grow up with the idea in his head that people will tease him for no reason whatsoever.

 

[mpw]

...He may well grow up with the idea in his head that people will tease him for no reason whatsoever.

Or he might grow up to learn first-hand how people's closed minded attitudes can effect others, and use this 'inside' knowledge to campaign, and teach others, thus improving society as a whole.

 

[EarlyMon]

the parents are idiots. period.

Completely agree. Everything here seems to be taking adult theories and running with them.

Children get cues on how to interact and fit in based on gauging how others react to their peers.

They may raise a genius or a sociopath killer with this approach, but they're not going to raise a kid with a running chance at being a balanced individual.

When this kid turns to young adult and moves out into the world, there will be no common basis for relating to same age individuals, regardless of gender or sexual preferences.

And if you think you went through rebellion at puberty, I can't imagine what will happen with this tyke. I hope he makes payback for them the bitch that they're choosing to make his life, I really do.

Gender dictates hormone content and type. Hormone content and type affect the brain.

I've raised three kids and have a strong part in the upbringing of 6 grandkids, and when I decided I wanted to add a full teaching degree to what I have, I went thru the rash of education psych courses, including gender development sutdies by Piaget. When trying to determine how neural systems worked, I went back and studied brain theory, and I'd suggest reading Edelson's seminal work, Neural Darwinism. That's my citation of references for what I believe.

Everyone debating this is using their big brains, you've all got 'em, that's why you're here. Nothing wrong with that.

Suppose, just suppose, this kid is physically wired in such a way as to have an IQ of exactly 100. Think you'll get a dashing individual breaking away from established norms and creating a brave new world?

I don't.

Life is short and the world is rough.

Children thrive on acceptance and consistency in their formative years, from age 0 to well into their 20s sometimes. How does the parents' plan give this kid a chance at either?

That's my opinion.

 

[Vihzel]

Well, the other two are named Jazz and Kio so that's not a great start. I've read that Jazz is often teased because he makes a point of telling people that he is a boy, but also likes to wear dresses and wears his hair long and in braids. He does not understand why other kids tease him for wearing dresses nor does he understand why people think he's a girl when (in his mind) he's obviously a boy. He may well grow up with the idea in his head that people will tease him for no reason whatsoever.

Dr. Harold Koplewicz: Bringing Up Baby Without Gender: A Risky Social Experiment?

I think this is a great article that shines more light on the family's situation that I just came across. It has more info (quite a bit new to me) than the article on the front page and others that I have read. I was curious as to where you found that info because I didn't read it from other articles. I do now believe that the parents are being reckless with the development of the children's gender identity because a big component of gender identity is through socialization. It also is at a very early age and at those ages, the family is definitely the highest influencing social institution. Peers wont really play a part until after the initial identity has been formed.

I think it's perfectly fine and acceptable with allowing kids to have their own preferences and not HAVE to conform to gender norms but when it's affecting the child's life as so far that the child chooses to not attend school for a year simply out of the fear that he/she would be teased? I hope the parents will realize that they will have to teach the child that there are unfortunate consequences in life that will keep resulting as a result of social deviance. I hope they're not going to put their kids in an ethnomethodological experiment. I did one of them and it was so difficult.

 

[Gmash]

I agree these parents are idiots, but one of my biggest problems with them is the fact that they chose to make this an international news story to get attention for themselves. They are basically whoring their kid out for the spotlight, consequences be damned. Also, you need a thick skin to make it in this world. How will this kid develop that if you just tell them "anything you want to do is great"? Thats not the way the world works. Unless they plan on raising him/her on some hippie commune somewhere for the rest of their life, this kid is going to have some serious issues.

 

[mpw]

I agree these parents are idiots, but one of my biggest problems with them is the fact that they chose to make this an international news story to get attention for themselves...

...we're [the parents] keeping it [gender] healthy and private (not secret!).

...article written by the Toronto Star's Jayme Poisson -- the only journalist so far to visit with the family...

...the family has decided to decline any further media interviews. Calls to their home by CNN were not returned...

Doesn't sound like they're the media whores you're making them out to be; I wonder if you're wrong about them being idiots also?

Of course part of their reasons for taking the action they have is because they believe people all to often jump to conclusions about others in this world.

 

[EarlyMon]

Please - the Toronto Star then the Washington Post quoted them.

They could've gone all normal when newpapers asked about their kid, and just said, "No comment."

 

[Gmash]

Please - the Toronto Star then the Washington Post quoted them.

They could've gone all normal when newpapers asked about their kid, and just said, "No comment."

lol at "gone all normal."
If they didn't want attention we wouldn't even know they exist.

 

[mpw]

Please - the Toronto Star then the Washington Post quoted them...

and CNN, and me, and many others; but they only talked to one reporter apparently.

...They could've gone all normal when newpapers asked about their kid, and just said, "No comment."...

they could've said no comment, indeed that appears to be the stance they've since taken. It may have been an error of judgement(how abnormal of them!) to answer any questions, but they may have worried that a newspaper would've run a one-sided story anyway; I guess some would think that concern to be abnormal.

...I'll agree with you - the parents certainly do not live up to the normal stereotype.

Well we agree on that; I just don't think that that makes them idiots like you assert; but hey, each to their own, free(ish) speech and all that.

 

[Bob Maxey]

I agree these parents are idiots, but one of my biggest problems with them is the fact that they chose to make this an international news story to get attention for themselves. They are basically whoring their kid out for the spotlight, consequences be damned. Also, you need a thick skin to make it in this world. How will this kid develop that if you just tell them "anything you want to do is great"? Thats not the way the world works. Unless they plan on raising him/her on some hippie commune somewhere for the rest of their life, this kid is going to have some serious issues.

I see a reality series coming to a TV near you.

 

[Bob Maxey]

I agree these parents are idiots, but one of my biggest problems with them is the fact that they chose to make this an international news story to get attention for themselves. They are basically whoring their kid out for the spotlight, consequences be damned. Also, you need a thick skin to make it in this world. How will this kid develop that if you just tell them "anything you want to do is great"? Thats not the way the world works. Unless they plan on raising him/her on some hippie commune somewhere for the rest of their life, this kid is going to have some serious issues.

Nothing new, really. Re, Beauty Pageants, with little girls that look like they are a silglt stripper pole away from the stages of Las Vegas. And not the family friendly Vegas I have grown to hate, but the places hidden where decent people never go. MY kinda Vegas.

Bob

 

[EarlyMon]

they could've said no comment, indeed that appears to be the stance they've since taken. It may have been an error of judgement(how abnormal of them!) to answer any questions, but they may have worried that a newspaper would've run a one-sided story anyway; I guess some would think that concern to be abnormal.


Well we agree on that; I just don't think that that makes them idiots like you assert; but hey, each to their own, free(ish) speech and all that.

Your defense of them is confusing to me - I'm ok with it out of principle - but I am confused on your rationale.

Premise - raise a child that will interface with the world without gender specificity, and to heck with others think: their kid, their goals, they have nothing to apologize for.

Response - newspaper could run a one-sided story, let's explain it to people.

Flatly contradictory. Not hypocritically so - merely evidence of an inability to foresee consequences to actions and consistency. Complete logic consistency failure - absolutely complete, total and epic.

I find people that set conflicting goals that escape logic to be idiots sometimes - where children are concerned, definitely.


And seriously, I'm confused that you would defend someone that talk to just one reporter and then get surprised at the outcome as being extra-normal somehow. All I can see is wishful thinking on their part, at my most generous.

IOW - are you saying their extra-normal response is based on some experience you and I could share where they'd announce this idea to the press and expect approval?

I'm still imagining a scenario where I became aware of the press wanting to run a story on how I'm raising my kids and responding to them in any way whatsoever. I got nothing.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Well, the other two are named Jazz and Kio so that's not a great start. I've read that Jazz is often teased because he makes a point of telling people that he is a boy, but also likes to wear dresses and wears his hair long and in braids. He does not understand why other kids tease him for wearing dresses nor does he understand why people think he's a girl when (in his mind) he's obviously a boy. He may well grow up with the idea in his head that people will tease him for no reason whatsoever.

We have been beat to death with this idea that a child's self-esteem is vital to their future and growth. Apparently, Jazz is already aware that there is a problem.

Let's face it, kids raised a certain way generally believe that there way is the right way. Sorry, but if your boy likes to wear dresses and braid his hair, he will spend the first part of his life in danger from bullies and he will suffer. Kids are cruel at times.

Not sure what the answer is. Perhaps we should be glad we (some of us/most/many/a few?) were raised in a time when gender was clearly and sharply defined.

Bob

 

[Vihzel]

I just wanted to make a quick PSA to please keep this thread on topic and that there are no attacks or even inadvertent attacks on other members. Debate is perfectly fine with other members and is encouraged but no insults!

Remember that if you feel that any post is an attack on you to please report it or send a PM to the user and try to work it out.

Thanks

 

[mpw]

...And seriously, I'm confused that you would defend someone that talk to just one reporter and then get surprised at the outcome as being extra-normal somehow...

I just can't bring myself to brand somebody an idiot based on the facts at hand; were I to do something I believed in, that was out of what another might think the 'norm', and I chose to put my case across when questioned I don't believe that would make me an idiot.

Had they not given any reason for their choices, do you believe the story would not have been run? I don't. Had it been run as I suspect, and been run without any explanation from the family directly, only the reporters own supposition, would your view of their idiocy differ? If so based on what rationale?

...All I can see is wishful thinking on their part, at my most generous...

Well maybe I'm just open to more possibilities, and I'm nowhere near my most generous. This may not be a normal viewpoint, but then maybe I'm just an idiot

 

[EarlyMon]

I'm open to more possibilities myself - such as this whole social thing going terribly wrong.

BTW - you're certainly making an interesting statement in that last sentence. Seems quite hostile, but I may be wrong, I often am.

 

[Gmash]

I see a reality series coming to a TV near you.

Maybe this family will move in with the balloon boy family.

 

[Dark Jedi]

Hate to tell them but they branded the sex of the child when they conceived the child.

I could see them doing this if the child was born a hermaphrodite. More parents are now letting the child choose instead of the parents choosing for them at birth.