UN Libyan Resolution

[byteware]

I'm pretty sure nearly anyone would be better than Gadaffi

And IMO, this shows a complete lack of imagination. You could have a hitler like figure that brings the world to world war III.

You could have a leadership that absolutely slaughters civilians in Western Libya.

Just because someone is bad... does NOT mean someone else is better.

Of course the UN resolution was a cover to help the rebels defeat Qaddafi, but they can't say that. And if rebels start killing Qaddafi supporters, in keeping with their cover story of only protecting civilians, they would have to then drop bombs on the rebels.

We have no place in a Civil War.

 

[ElasticNinja]

its not much of a civil war, Gaddafi has some of his tribe and mercenaries, everyone else wants him out and he would be gone if not for the fact that the bulk of his military equipment was not ceded to the rebels

 

[cipher6]

its not much of a civil war, Gaddafi has some of his tribe and mercenaries, everyone else wants him out and he would be gone if not for the fact that the bulk of his military equipment was not ceded to the rebels

Thats not quite true, according to reports.

NATO's warning to rebels that they could be targeted too, if they threaten civilians, was prompted by fears they might kill civilians trying to take pro-Qaddafi cities by force.

Meanwhile, fresh intelligence this week showed that Libyan government forces were supplying assault rifles to civilians in the town of Surt, which is populated largely by Qaddafi loyalists. These civilian Qaddafi sympathizers were seen chasing rebel forces in nonmilitary vehicles like sedans and trucks, accompanied by Libyan troops, according to American military officers.

At times when the rebels are gaining ground, the allies fear that the rebels will inevitably try to take loyalist cities by force, and could end up endangering or even killing civilians there. That is what prompted the coalition

 

[byteware]

its not much of a civil war, Gaddafi has some of his tribe and mercenaries, everyone else wants him out and he would be gone if not for the fact that the bulk of his military equipment was not ceded to the rebels

From western media reports, you would assume so, but that's not the case.

Qadhadhfa is one relatively tiny tribe of the 140 tribes in Libya. Many are currently siding with Gaddafi. Many are currently against him.

This is a Civil War. Nothing more. Nothing less. We've just decided which side are the good guys, and so they should win at all costs.

 

[cipher6]

From western media reports, you would assume so, but that's not the case.

Qadhadhfa is one relatively tiny tribe of the 140 tribes in Libya. Many are currently siding with Gaddafi. Many are currently against him.

This is a Civil War. Nothing more. Nothing less. We've just decided which side are the good guys, and so they should win at all costs.

Civil war, yeah. But its not so cut and dry along tribal lines.



http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/03/31/world/africa/AP-AF-Libya-Gadhafis-Support.html?ref=world

Gadhafi's most important alliances have been with the Warfalla and Magarha tribes, thought to be among the biggest in the country,

Some leaders in both tribes have announced their support for the anti-Gadhafi uprising since it erupted on Feb. 15, and numerous individual Warfalla and Magarha have joined the revolt, either as fighters or politicians. Mahmoud Jibril, the head of the opposition's eastern-based leadership council, is a Warfalla.

The myth of tribal Libya | Alaa al-Ameri | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

If tribalism were at the heart of this effort, why risk it all to liberate towns in the west? Why have towns such as Misrata, Zawiya and Zintan, all a short drive from Tripoli, chosen to join the National Transitional Council

 

[cipher6]

Rebels want cease fire now that US has passed control to NATO, who said they would bomb rebels if they attacked civilians.

Libya’s opposition called for a cease-fire after the U.S. said it’s withdrawing aircraft used to attack Muammar Qaddafi’s forces following adverse weather that prevented strikes allowing Libyan loyalists to push back rebels.

...

The rebel move comes one day after Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said U.S. jets, won’t be flying with NATO forces over Libya after April 2. Mullen said planes would be made available only if requested by NATO. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates told Congress the U.S. will “significantly ramp down our commitment” to Libya except for electronic warfare, aerial refueling and surveillance.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...er-u-s-vows-to-withdraw-jets-by-tomorrow.html

 

[ElasticNinja]

one thing I would say regarding a ceasefire - Gadaffi declared two already, why would they believe him again?

BTW Cipher, thanks for those insightful posts - Tripoli is the only real stronghold of Gadaffi (most military there, most wealth)

 

[cipher6]

I've read Surt and a few other cities refereed to as majority Q loyalists as well.

 

[ElasticNinja]

I've read Surt and a few other cities refereed to as majority Q loyalists as well.

Surtr is the birthplace of Gadaffi... its actually quite large (I misread its as 7000 pop, its actually 10 times that ).. was just checking the wiki, and its amazing how fast the developments in Libya have been recoreded in wikipedia, we have a war name name, battle name etc
Not too long ago these things would've taken weeks/months to classify

 

[cipher6]

Surtr is the birthplace of Gadaffi... its actually quite large (I misread its as 7000 pop, its actually 10 times that ).. was just checking the wiki, and its amazing how fast the developments in Libya have been recoreded in wikipedia, we have a war name name, battle name etc
Not too long ago these things would've taken weeks/months to classify

Yeah, our modern age of information is crazy... I'm follow a lot of people in Libya (and around the middle east) on twitter. It boggles my mind I can be sitting at home reading first hand reports of towns being attacked and see youtube videos of things blowing up just a few minutes ago, all on my phone... crazy.

 

[adi19956]

BBC quote again
"Seven civilians died and 25 were hurt in a coalition air strike on a pro-Gaddafi convoy in eastern Libya, a doctor there has told the BBC"
what's the point in doing this to protect civilians if it's actually killing them?
we aren't at war as such so don't tell me it always happens in war

 

[Dark Jedi]

You cant make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Bombs,missiles,and bullets can not tell who is a combatant and who is a civilian. There is no protecting them and when will you wake up and realize this? If we dont kill a few then the rebels will or Gaddafi forces will. In the end civilians will die in this civil war and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Now you know why they call war is hell.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Allied Air Forces mistakenly have hit Rebels be accident twice today
Neither were their fault, in the second case the rebels were firing an Anti-Aircraft gun in celebration. Idiots

 

[cipher6]

Allied Air Forces mistakenly have hit Rebels be accident twice today
Neither were their fault, in the second case the rebels were firing an Anti-Aircraft gun in celebration. Idiots

Yeah, they were firing AA guns in the air in celebration (during an allied air-strike) of the front lines moving into the town. So the AC-130(?) thought it was coming under fire, and took them all out... Very undisciplined fighting force.

I read another report, (they are dealing with ammo shortages) and there was a rebel firing his gun in the air in celebration (they seem to like that). The reporter asked the guy, "why are you doing that when the leadership says there is an ammo shortage?" The rebel replied, "This is my gun."

--------

Other developements:


Rebels can't even agree on whos running the show:


Libyan rebels struggle to explain rift - The Washington Post

Khalifa Haftar, a former army colonel who recently returned to Libya after living for many years in Falls Church, was initially hailed by the Transitional National Council as a leader who could help discipline the new army and train its largely volunteer ranks.

But Saturday, Ghoga said Haftar had no leadership role in the army.

“We defined the military leadership before the arrival of Haftar from the United States,” he said, referring to the appointment of Abdul Fattah Younis as commander of the armed forces and Omar al-Hariri as the council’s senior defense official. “We told Mr. Haftar that if he wants, he can work within the structure that we have laid out.”

Info on Haftar (He defected from Q. in the 80's fought in militia's, funded by the CIA then moved to Virgina)
CIA Operative Appointed to Run al-Qaeda Connected Libyan Rebels | The Liberty Voice




NATO to U.S.: We Need More Strikes in Libya
NATO Asks U.S. to Continue Libya Air Strikes - ABC News

The US recently said, we would be backing off, and winding down our part in the effort, unless NATO asked us for more help, well NATO asked for more help.



Q has been "searching for a solution," sending diplomats around the world, probably trying to find a place he can retire.

In diplomatic overture, Gaddafi emissary meets Greek leader in Athens - The Washington Post

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/world/africa/02libya.html?_r=1&ref=world

Dictator seeks second home? A guide to Gaddafi’s exile options - The Washington Post


And Italy, the number one buyer of Libyan oil, finally recognized the transitional council today, and said, Qaddafi, "has got to go."

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/04/04/world/africa/AP-Libya-Diplomacy.html?ref=world



2 Qaddafi Sons Are Said to Offer Plan to Push Father Out
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/04/world/africa/04libya.html?&pagewanted=all

 

[cipher6]

Qaeda exploits Libya situation to get arms: official

Algerian official claims AQ smuggling weapons out of Libya.

The senior official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said a convoy of eight Toyota pick-up trucks left eastern Libya, crossed into Chad and then Niger, and from there into northern Mali where in the past few days it delivered a cargo of weapons.

The weapons included Russian-made RPG-7 anti-tank rocket-propelled grenades, Kalashnikov heavy machine guns, Kalashnikov rifles, explosives and ammunition, he said.


"Several military barracks have been pillaged in this region (eastern Libya) with their arsenals and weapons stores and the elements of AQIM who were present could not have failed to profit from this opportunity" the official told Reuters

"AQIM, which has maintained excellent relations with smugglers who used to cross Libya from all directions without the slightest difficulty, will probably give them the task of bringing it the weapons," said the official.

The Algerian security official said Western states had to realize that if Gaddafi's government fell, al-Qaeda could exploit the resulting chaos to extend its influence to the Mediterranean coast, just a few km (miles) from Europe.

"If the Gaddafi regime goes, it is the whole of Libya -- in terms of a country which has watertight borders and security and customs services which used to control these borders -- which will disappear, at least for a good time, long enough for AQIM to re-deploy as far as the Libyan Mediterranean."

"The coalition forces must make an urgent choice. To allow chaos to settle in ... or to preserve the Libyan regime, with or without Gaddafi, to restore the pre-uprising security situation," the official told Reuters.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Well Algeria would say that would they not
There are easier sources of arms than that, not that I'd be surprised if they took advantage

 

[cipher6]

Developments today:



FBI Questions Libyans Living in U.S. - WSJ.com

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has begun questioning Libyans living in the U.S., part of an effort to identify any Libyan-backed spies or terrorists, and collect any information that might help allied military operations.

The move reflects concerns among U.S. officials—in the wake of an allied bombing campaign that established a no-fly zone over Libya to prevent the massacre of antigovernment rebels—that Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi might try to orchestrate revenge attacks against U.S. citizens.

US pulls out warplanes from Libya: Pentagon

The US military on Monday withdrew its fighter jets from the international air campaign in Libya, officials said, after NATO asked Washington to keep up bombing raids for another 48 hours.
The United States had planned to halt combat missions and Tomahawk cruise missile launches at the weekend but accepted a NATO request to continue the operations for another 48 hours until Monday.

US combat sorties ended at 2200 GMT, with American warplanes on standby as NATO takes the lead, Pentagon spokesman Captain Darryn James said.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/04/04/world/europe/AP-EU-Britain-Libya.html?ref=world

LONDON (AP) — Britain has announced it will supply communications equipment to Libyan rebels to help them withstand attacks by Moammar Gadhafi's forces.

Greek PM to unveil Libya peace plan in 'next day or two' - Washington Times
Greek PM to unveil Libya peace plan in ‘next day or two’



http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2011/04/04/world/africa/news-us-libya.html?ref=world

TRIPOLI/SFAX, Tunisia (Reuters) - Forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi are staging a "massacre" in the besieged city of Misrata, evacuees said on Monday, as Libya said it was ready to discuss political reform, led by Gaddafi.

 

[cipher6]

now for something completely different.

 

[cipher6]

Interesting:

General Abdul Fatah Younis, newly appointed chief of Libya’s rebel forces, has made a dramatic bid to broker peace with tribes in Gaddafi’s own heartland and bring an end to the country’s civil war.
Accompanied by French special forces, he ventured beyond the front line soon after dawn on Friday, striking out across the desert towards Sirte under the protection of Coalition warplanes.

The General told confidants he believes the Qadhadfa tribe, Gaddafi’s own people, and the Ferjanny will be the key to peace in Libya and that it will come soon.

‘There were great risks in the journey itself but Abdul Fatah was protected at all times by air cover from French warplanes.’

Early on Friday it involved an initial public show of bravado and solidarity on the front line at Brega, an oil town that has been taken and retaken by Gaddafi’s forces several times in the past ten days.

‘We are men, not savages,’ he told them. ‘Above all we are Libyans. There must be no brutality, no revenge beatings or any mistreatment of prisoners. It is important for us to emerge as the new leaders of our new country.
‘You are young and enthusiastic but that is not enough. There are rules to observe in wartime as there are in peacetime. I am proud of you all now and I want to be proud of you when this military activity is at an end.’

Read more: Libya's 'torturer-in-chief' Moussa Koussa offered asylum in Britain to topple Gaddafi | Mail Online

 

[cipher6]

Qaddafi Writes to Obama, Urging End to Airstrikes
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/07/world/africa/07libya.html?ref=world#

Text:
Text of New Qaddafi Letter to Obama - NYTimes.com


Top Libyans Said to Be Very Scared

Libya's former-energy minister said Wednesday that several members of Moammar Gadhafi's inner circle want to defect, but many are too scared to abandon the dictator fearing the safety of themselves and their families.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/04/06/world/africa/AP-Libya-Ex-Minister.html?ref=world


NATO accidentally blows up rebels... again.

AJDABIYA, Libya (AP) -- Rebel fighters claimed NATO airstrikes blasted their forces Thursday in another apparent mistake that sharply escalated anger about coordination with the military alliance in efforts to cripple Libyan forces. At least two rebels were killed and more than a dozen injured, a doctor said.

News from The Associated Press


"Sliding into a Prolonged Conflict"

NATO can always point to the fact that it is simply implementing the aims agreed upon by the United Nations -- a no-fly zone and the protection of civilians. But in reality, it is hardly a secret that the true goals of the operation are more than that. Every day that Gadhafi remains in power, pressure is growing on Western politicians and military leaders. The question of how long the intervention will last is increasingly being asked out loud. The British Royal Air Force chief estimated this week that it would take six months. Politicians, on the other hand, have had the foresight not to mention any deadlines.

The Battle against Gadhafi: NATO Fears War without End in Libya - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International





Refugees or migrants?

ROME (AP) -- A boat carrying as many as 300 migrants from Libya capsized in rough seas off the Italian coast early Wednesday, leaving 250 people unaccounted for.

If the number of dead is confirmed, it would prove the deadliest crossing to Italy in recent memory, and the worst refugee disaster since a wave of migrants began arriving on Italian shores in January following popular revolts in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya.

http://ap.stripes.com/dynamic/stori...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-04-06-13-57-15

 

[cipher6]

General: U.S. may consider troops in Libya

(CBS/AP) WASHINGTON - The United States may consider sending troops into Libya with a possible international ground force that could aid the rebels, according to the general who led the military mission until NATO took over.
Army Gen. Carter Ham also told lawmakers Thursday that added American participation would not be ideal, and ground troops could erode the international coalition and make it more difficult to get Arab support for operations in Libya.

Ham said the operation was largely stalemated now and was more likely to remain that way since America has transferred control to NATO.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/07/501364/main20051760.shtml#ixzz1IrtMwlxl

 

[ElasticNinja]

^^^
do not want to see this

 

[cipher6]

Here's an Unlike.ly Tale: Gadhafi Does Swimming.ly on the Internet

Where have the United Nations, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the U.S. Air Force directed Twitter followers to learn more about military action in Libya? To an Internet domain controlled by the regime of Col. Moammar Gadhafi.

They aren't the only ones to send their Internet followers through Libya. So have House Speaker John Boehner (R., Ohio), Stanford University, Charlie Sheen, the White House, Kim Kardashian, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Paul McCartney, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and thousands of others.

The reason is a linguistic anomaly that might be Col. Gadhafi's most unlikely asset: Libya's Internet domain happens to be the English language's adverbial suffix: ly.

As a result, the .ly domain has proved attractive to English-language businesses looking for catchy online names—including bit.ly, Ow.ly and other popular utilities that compress lengthy Internet addresses, making them easier to email, link or fit the tight space on networks like Twitter. These helpful, simple—and free—services have become ubiquitous.

The .ly domain is controlled by Libya's General Post and Telecommunications Co., whose chairman, Mohammed el-Gadhafi, is the dictator's eldest son. It says it has rented out more than 10,000 .ly domains, either directly or through resellers.

Human Rights Watch, which has blasted the Gadhafi regime for blocking Internet access within Libya, is one organization that unwittingly used the .ly addresses. "It's ironic and a little bit distasteful," says Tom Malinowski, the group's Washington director, upon learning the news from a reporter.

Here's an Unlike.ly Tale: Gadhafi Does Swimming.ly on the Internet - WSJ.com

 

[cipher6]

Libyan Conflict Seen as Stalemate
Libyan Conflict Seen as Stalemate | North Africa | English

"Regrettably, the longer this goes on, the more the civilian population will be affected by the conflict, by the fighting and we are deeply troubled by what we're starting to see as more fundamental issues affecting daily life," Simon Brooks, head of the Red Cross mission in Benghazi added.

This is turning into a mockery of the idea of intervention to protect civilians.

Moreover, America has an important strategic interest in preventing Gaddafi from overrunning those who oppose him. A massacre would have driven thousands of additional refugees across Libya's borders, putting enormous strains on the peaceful - yet fragile - transitions in Egypt and Tunisia.

UN says 500,000 flee Libya fighting
FT.com / Middle East & North Africa - UN says 500,000 flee Libya fighting

More than half a million people have fled Libya over the past two months, the UN refugee agency reported on Tuesday as it warned that the exodus had picked up pace in recent days.

By April 10, the UN had kept track of more than 498,000 people leaving Libya by land since an uprising erupted in February, including more than 236,000 crossing to Tunisia, nearly 200,000 to Egypt, 36,500 to Niger and smaller numbers to Algeria, Chad and Sudan.

 

[ElasticNinja]

The rebels still having trouble, Gaddafis forces more organised, hope NATO can do more, and let the rebels fight it themselves with more aid for Qatar